Brent Meeker writes:> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 21:57:15 -0800> From: meekerdb.domain.name.hidden> To: everything-list.domain.name.hidden> Subject: Re: ASSA and Many-Worlds> > > Stathis Papaioannou wrote:> > Brent Meeker writes:> > > > > > > OK, but that means "observer moments" are not fundamental and the> > > > "illusion" of their continuity may be provided by the continuity of> > > > their underpinning. But I don't see how a strictly stepwise discrete> > > > process as contemplated in the UD can provide that continuity. It > > was my> > > > understanding that it assumed consciousness could be provided by a> > > > series of disjoint states.> > > > >> > > > > Brent Meeker> > > >> > > > It's an assumption of computationalism that the discrete computational> > > > steps will lead to continuity of consciousness. Moreover, it's an> > > > assumption of computationalism that a discontinuity in substrate of> > > > implementation (i.e. from brain to digital computer) will preserve> > > > continuity of consciousness.> > >> > > Maybe that assumption is inconsistent.> > >> > > Computational steps have an order in Platonia. In implementing them > > in the material world, as in a computer, the sequentiallity (is that a > > word?) of the steps is provided by the underlying physics just as the 1s > > and 0s are provided by switches. But without the continuity of the > > substrate it seems the states need some axiomatic, inherent order as in > > Platonia. So then it is not clear that states can be chopped arbitrarily > > finely and still function as computations - or a stream of conscious states.> > >> > > Brent Meeker> > > > I don't see how it is possible to mix up something any more thoroughly > > in the real world than it is already mixed up in Platonia. > > Sure. In the real world I can write 1 2 4 7 6 3... But in arithmtic Platonia (a small part of the kingdom) there's no spacial or temporal order that can conflict with the inherent order.But "1 2 4 7 6 3..." is a string in Platonia, always "there" even if you don't explicitly state it (as you must do in the real world), and it doesn't manage to confuse the order of the counting numbers. > >It's not as > > if God has to explicitly put the integers in line one after the other: > > they just naturally form a sequence, and they would no less form a > > sequence if they were written on cards and thrown to the wind. Explicit > > ordering in the physical world is important from a third person > > perspective. If the putative sequence has a first person experience, and > > the substrate of its implementation is transparent to that first person > > experience (eg. an entity in a virtual reality environment with no > > external input) then the implicit ordering in Platonia is sufficient to > > create the first person impression of continuity.> > > > Stathis Papaioannou> > I don't disagree with that. But that means that a conscious, 1st person, pair of experiences, i.e. pair of numbers can have no order other than the inherent order of the numbers. And if an experience corresponds to just a number, then experiences are discrete and can't be chopped finer than some limit. The order of a pair of experiences is set by the fact that one is considered first and the other second, perhaps because there is a subjective sense of the passage of time, perhaps because the second experience contains a memory of the first, perhaps due to some other subtle aspect of the content of the experiences. In the real world, the subjective content reflects brain activity which in turn reflects environmental input (that's why the sense of order evolved in the first place), but this relationship is only a contingent one. If the pair of experiences are experienced in the order AB there is no way for the experiencer to know whether they were actually generated in the order AB or BA, unless reversing the order changes the content in some significant way.This means there is no natural order of physical states (or abstract machine states): the order can be anything, and the subjective order of experience will be unchanged. It also means there is no natural order of subjective states: that which seems first, seems first and that which seems second, seems second. This is good, because it doesn't depend on any theory or assumption about consciousness. > I guess I need a more explicit idea of how experiences occur in arithmetic Platonia. Are we to imagine that some large number 3875835442... is a single, atomic experience and another number 3876976342... is another single, atomic experience and they have no other relation than their natural order? In that case, they would be experiences in a certain bundle of streams of consciousness just in virtue of having some digits in common or having factors in common or what? Or are we to imagine another Platonic object, a Turing machine, that generates both these numbers in a certain sequence (maybe the reverse of their natural order) - and that's what makes them parts of the same experience bundle?> > Brent MeekerI would say that the relationship between abstract machine states does not have anything to do with how mental states are ordered or even if they belong to the same person, except insofar as related machine states may lead to mental states with related content.Stathis Papaioannou
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Received on Mon Jan 29 2007 - 04:52:22 PST