Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 16:43:41 -0500
Mark:
although I still owe you my promised response to your note addressed to me
lately,
I join your 'impertinence' in expanding your question:
The 'meaning' of WHAT are you talking about? You said "IT IS" - existence,
value, etc. etc.??? - which one did you 'pick' as the subject of that
"meaning"? It is hard to agree in the meaning of a not-agreed upon
subject.
From remarks (re: Mark) I guess you emphasise bodily functions, (from the
hippocampus through sleep to the Australian Tax Office) or maybe the
churning of bio-molecules within their assumed membrane boundaries? I have
been thinking about such puzzles for 30 years more than you, without
conclusive decision, so I still feel open to listen. There must be more to
it than what we think, because as I look at the history of human thinking,
subsequent ERAS always spoke about more (and different) than ANY preceding
ones. Since I don't see the End of the World attached to today's date, I
assume that our today's ideas are also not the final and complete ones. We
(as the grandkids of our grandkids and thereafter) have additional stuff to
learn.
So what is that contemporary and erroneous idea of "life" you are talking
about?
You don't seem tome as a heritage-adorer who cherishes only the ideas of
last century(s?). Not even further back, say all the way back to Plato
(OOPS!).
Then again "MEANING" is tricky: I could condone a descriptive formulation
about how origination resulted in phenomena we observe (right or wrong), but
most people think "goal-wise" and look for a (final??) purpose, which IMO;
lies in a dissipation of all.
So: how sorry I am to say so: I cannot scribble down the 'perfect' answer to
the 'Subject' of this widely and spreadoutly branched thread, unless you
disclose the subject of that 'meaning' you all are seeking. (Even then I
don't promise...)
Hal Ruhl gave an answer on 'life', but he seems to have merged too deeply
into the figment (sorry: no offense meant) of physical concepts he uses.
Earlier he was a 'more free' thinker. Now that he 'organized' his
theoretical stuff, he seemingly needed more of the establishment-science. or
at least their expressions - to express himself for the academic crowd.
I am not talking about THIS biosphere and the physiology/evolution of
Darwinian restrictions, I like to generalize beyond the models available to
date. And try to leave open a slot for things beyond human mental
restrictions as unknowable uncertain potentials (not even possibilities,
which would be within our domain). Extract some characteristics that could
pertain to "life" as we don't know it, boil it down to some applicability
beyond knowable circumstances and look for whatever our feeble m\ind can
make out of it. I am not yet there, maybe in another 2-300 years of study?
Have a good year and then more
John M
On 1/5/07, Mark Peaty <mpeaty.domain.name.hidden> wrote:
>
> Bruno, Stathis, Brent, Peter,Brent, Tom, Hal and others,
>
> I have to be very impertinent here and try to draw your attention to
> something you are just not getting.
>
> There is NO ultimate answer to the meaning of life, the universe and
> everything except that IT IS, and you are here to take part in it and
> observe yourself and others doing so. Existence is the source of value,
> indeed it is the essence of value.
>
> I am not in the habit of putting myself forward, but here I believe the
> ideas are what count and I believe the issue is very important. I mean at 55
> yo I know I have already attained 'old fart' status for most people I meet.
> But one thing I know for sure is that, just like me, YOU are not going to
> live for ever. As most of you seem a fair bit smarter than me I assume that
> you can/will mostly choose how you spend your limited lifetime. Choose
> wisely 'cause it's a once-off.
>
> I really do think that before any of you get much older you should take a
> VERY careful look at what I have been writing here. Have a look also at the
> common meanings for the word physics [samples included below]. If you don't
> then I think you are going to spend the rest of your lives chasing shadows,
> and end up a bunch of old men sitting on the cyberspace equivalent of a park
> bench, STILL chewing over the same old problem! Of course, if that is what
> you want then that's fine. But don't say you weren't warned! :-)
>
> the fact is, being conscious is inherently paradoxical, and there is no
> escape from the paradox, just like there is no escape from the universe -
> until you die that is. Your impressions, perceptions, feelings, intuitions,
> etc. of being here now [where you are of course] is what it is like to be
> the updating of the model of self in the world which you brain is constantly
> constructing all the time you are awake. When you sleep there are times when
> enough of the model gets evoked that you have a dream that you can remember.
> The paradox is that for most of the time we assume that this awareness -
> consciousness, call it what you like - IS the world, i.e. what it is like
> to be 'me' here now, whereas in fact it is only what it is like to be the
> model of 'me' here now. This does not mean that you don't exist; you do
> exist, and you must pay taxes in partial payment for the privilege, until
> you die that is. [I work for the Australian Taxation Office so I know about
> these things :-] There is however a lot more stuff going on in your brain
> than is actually explicitly involved in your consciousness of the moment, as
> far as I can see there are usually a couple or triple of very sophisticated
> tasks going on in parallel but swapping in and out of focussed attention as
> needs and priorities of the moment require. There are often also several
> other tasks simmering away like pots on the back burners of your stove.
>
> I believe it is the hippocampus which maintains the tasks in process
> through re-entrant signalling to the relevant cortical and other areas which
> embody the salient features of the constructs involved. Binding is achieved
> through re-entrant signalling of resonant wave forms such that each
> construct EXISTS as a dynamic logical entity able to maintain its own
> structure sufficiently to prevent certain other things happening and to
> invoke through association [or perhaps through reaction to patterns of
> inhibition, whatever] other constructs as necessary. Note the key word
> 'exists'. The energy is supplied through the work done as the neurons
> re-establish the resting potential of their cell membranes. And here I
> should point out that most of the posts on this list do not seem to talk
> much about structure, and yet it is the spatia-temporal structures of
> interacting cell assemblies which embody the patterns of information which
> make muscles move. Think about it! This is what you should be really
> concentrating on, because you and I are NOTHING if our muscles can't be made
> to move in exactly the right way and the right time.
>
> I know I have written 'I believe' up there a few times, but if you wish I
> can go hunting for you and find a bunch of references that back up what I am
> saying. I do not have access to pay-as-you-go academic journals, so I have
> been gleaning ideas and items of interest about this for the last couple of
> decades. I put it to you that if you seriously think I am wrong, then you
> have a moral duty to show me on the basis of clear and unambiguous empirical
> evidence where it is that I am wrong about this. Because otherwise it is
> just a matter of opinion and speculation, in which case mine is as good as
> anybody else's that I have seen on consciousness related lists and what I am
> proposing is not in contradiction to any good evidence that I have heard
> about. I think William of Occam would be more than happy with what I am
> putting forward.
>
> I hope no one is offended by this. Is they are, sorry! But time returns
> for no one and you do not have for ever, just all the time there is - for
> you. That is what entropy is about.
>
> Regards
>
> Mark Peaty CDES
>
> mpeaty.domain.name.hidden
>
> http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ <http://www.arach.net.au/%7Empeaty/>
>
>
> See down below for:
> 10 results for: *physics*
> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
>
> Le 05-janv.-07, à 05:55, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit :
>
> Bruno: If consciousness supervenes on all physical processes a case can
> be made that matter could be relevant for consciousness. (I see Peter
> Jones makes a similar remark).
>
> <<snip>>
>
> You mean a quantum superposition? (then with comp such a superposition
> really describes an infinity of immaterial computational histories in which
> each page contains a finite amount of ink. Well it is rather similar with
> the quantum mechanical superposition).
>
> The only sense in which (both with quantum field theory AND with the
> comp-physics) I can accept an infinite information on a black page is
> related to renormalization problem, spurious infinite energies ....
>
> But then why to assume a physical world with all those infinities when
> comp forces us to deal with already enough infinities?
> You loss me I'm afraid. Are you trying to save both comp AND the physical
> supervenience? We have not yet derive the whole of physics from comp, but we
> can already expect the "mind-matter" mapping to be something quite complex.
> For me it is obvious that to a mind state there will be an infinity of
> "computational states and histories" going through that mind state. The
> reverse is harder because we are unable (assuming comp) to singularize a
> "comp-physical states". Physical states *are* already first person plural
> (inter-subjective) appearances emerging from the gluing and overlapping of
> infinities of computations (and thus immaterial(*)). Unless I am wrong,
> standard computationalism is flawed, like both the monist and dualist
> doctrine of materialism are flawed.
> It would be wrong to say that comp makes materialism refutated, but for a
> similar reason that it is wrong to say that bilogy has proves that vitalism
> is refutated. But biology has made vitalism explanation-useless, and
> computationalism makes materialism explantion useless too.
>
> Of course it remains the possibility that comp is incorrect. If comp is
> true, we have to live with that possibility forever.
>
> Bruno
>
>
> 10 results for: *physics*
>
> View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus<http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/physics>|
> Encyclopedia <http://www.reference.com/search?q=physics> | All Reference<http://www.reference.com/browse/all/physics>| the
> Web <http://www.reference.com/search?db=web&q=physics>
> Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)<http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna.html>- Cite
> This Source <http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=physics&ia=luna>
> phys·ics <https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fphysics>
> / f z ks/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[*fiz*-iks] Pronunciation
> Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun (used with a singular verb) the
> science that deals with matter, energy, motion, and force.
> ------------------------------
> [Origin: 1580–90; see physic<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=physic>,
> -ics <http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=-ics>]
> Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
> Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, (c) Random House, Inc.
> 2006. American Heritage Dictionary<http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4.html>- Cite
> This Source <http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=physics&ia=ahd4>
> *phys·ic* (f z' k) Pronunciation Key<http://cache.lexico.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html>
> <https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fphysics>
>
> n.
>
> 1. A medicine or drug, especially a cathartic.
> 2. *Archaic* The art or profession of medicine.
>
>
> tr.v. *phys·icked*, *phys·ick·ing*, *phys·ics*
>
> 1. To act on as a cathartic.
> 2. To cure or heal.
> 3. To treat with or as if with medicine.
>
>
>
> [Middle English phisik, from Old French fisique, *medical science, natural
> science*, from Latin, *natural science*, from Greek phusik , feminine of
> phusikos, *of nature*, from phusis, *nature*; see bheu - in Indo-European
> roots.]
>
> (Download Now<http://dictionary.reference.com/go/http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/eref/buy_HMAFF00004.jsp>or Buy
> the Book <http://dictionary.reference.com/bookstore/ahd4.html>) The
> American Heritage(r) Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
> Copyright (c) 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
> Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. American
> Heritage Dictionary <http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4.html> - Cite
> This Source <http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=physics&ia=ahd4>
> *phys·ics* (f z' ks) Pronunciation Key<http://cache.lexico.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html>
> <https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fphysics>
>
> n.
>
> 1. *(used with a sing. verb)* The science of matter and energy and
> of interactions between the two, grouped in traditional fields such as
> acoustics, optics, mechanics, thermodynamics, and electromagnetism, as well
> as in modern extensions including atomic and nuclear physics, cryogenics,
> solid-state physics, particle physics, and plasma physics.
> 2. *(used with a pl. verb)* Physical properties, interactions,
> processes, or laws: *the physics of supersonic flight.*
> 3. *(used with a sing. verb)* *Archaic* The study of the natural or
> material world and phenomena; natural philosophy.
>
>
>
> [From Latin physica, from Greek (ta) phusika, from neuter pl. of phusikos,
> *of nature*; see * physics*.]
>
> (Download Now<http://dictionary.reference.com/go/http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/eref/buy_HMAFF00004.jsp>or Buy
> the Book <http://dictionary.reference.com/bookstore/ahd4.html>) The
> American Heritage(r) Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
> Copyright (c) 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
> Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. WordNet<http://dictionary.reference.com/help/wn.html>- Cite
> This Source <http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=physics&ia=wn>
> *physics*
> *noun* the science of matter and energy and their interactions
> WordNet(r) 2.1, (c) 2005 Princeton University The American Heritage Science
> Dictionary <http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahsd.html> - Cite This
> Source <http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=physics&ia=ahsd> *
> physics* (f z' ks) Pronunciation Key<http://cache.lexico.com/help/ahsd/pronkey.html>
>
> <https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fphysics>
>
>
> 1. The scientific study of matter, energy, space, and time, and of
> the relations between them.
> 2. The behavior of a given physical system, especially as understood
> by a physical theory.
>
>
> The American Heritage(r) Science Dictionary
> Copyright (c) 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
> Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. American
> Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition<http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahcl.html>- Cite
> This Source <http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=physics&ia=ahcl>
> *physics*
>
> The scientific study of matter<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/matter>and motion. (
> *See* mechanics <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mechanics>, optics<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/optics>,
> quantum mechanics<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/quantum%20mechanics>,
> relativity <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/relativity>, *and*
> thermodynamics <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/thermodynamics>.)
>
> [Chapter:] *Physical Sciences and Mathematics*
>
>
> The American Heritage(r) New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third
> Edition
> Copyright (c) 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
> Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. American
> Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/00-database-info&db=ahsmd>- Cite
> This Source<http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=physics&ia=ahsmd>
>
> *phys·ics* (fzks)
> *n.*
>
> 1.
> * Abbr. **phys.* The science of matter and energy and of
> interactions between the two, grouped in traditional fields such as
> acoustics, optics, mechanics, thermodynamics, and electromagnetism, as well
> as in modern extensions including atomic and nuclear physics, cryogenics,
> solid-state physics, particle physics, and plasma physics.
> 2. Physical properties, interactions, processes, or laws.
>
> The American Heritage(r) Stedman's Medical Dictionary
> Copyright (c) 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by
> Houghton Mifflin Company. Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary<http://dictionary.reference.com/help/mwmed.html>- Cite
> This Source<http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=physics&ia=mwmed>
>
> Main Entry: *phys·ics*
> Pronunciation: 'fiz-iks
> Function: *noun plural but singular or plural in construction*
> *:* a science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions in
> the fields of mechanics, acoustics, optics, heat, electricity, magnetism,
> radiation, atomic structure, and nuclear phenomena
> Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, (c) 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. On-line
> Medical Dictionary<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/00-database-info&db=omd>- Cite
> This Source <http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=physics&ia=omd>
>
> *physics*
>
> physics<http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?query=physics&action=Search+OMD>:
> in CancerWEB's On-line Medical Dictionary
> On-line Medical Dictionary, (c) 1997-98 Academic Medical Publishing &
> CancerWEB Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version)<http://dictionary.reference.com/help/kdict.html>- Cite
> This Source<http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=physics&ia=kdict>
> physics [ fiziks] noun singular
> the study of natural phenomena such as heat, light, sound, electricity,
> magnetism etc but not usually chemistry or biology
> Example: Physics is his main subject at university. Arabic: Chinese
> (Simplified): Chinese (Traditional): Czech: fyzika Danish:
> fysik Dutch: natuurkunde Estonian: füüsika Finnish: fysiikka French:
> physique German: die Physik Greek: Hungarian: fizika Icelandic:
> eðlisfræði Indonesian: fisika Italian: fisica Japanese:
> Latvian: fizika Lithuanian: fizika Norwegian: fysikk Polish: fizyka Portuguese
> (Brazil): física Portuguese (Portugal): física Romanian: fizic
> Russian: Slovak: fyzika Slovenian: fizika Spanish: física
> Swedish: fysik Turkish: fizik
> *See also:* physicist<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/en%3Aphysicist>
>
> Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version), (c) 2000-2006 K
> Dictionaries Ltd.
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