Bruno, Stathis, Brent, Peter,Brent, Tom, Hal and others,
I have to be very impertinent here and try to draw your attention to
something you are just not getting.
There is NO ultimate answer to the meaning of life, the universe and
everything except that IT IS, and you are here to take part in it and
observe yourself and others doing so. Existence is the source of value,
indeed it is the essence of value.
I am not in the habit of putting myself forward, but here I believe the
ideas are what count and I believe the issue is very important. I mean
at 55 yo I know I have already attained 'old fart' status for most
people I meet. But one thing I know for sure is that, just like me, YOU
are not going to live for ever. As most of you seem a fair bit smarter
than me I assume that you can/will mostly choose how you spend your
limited lifetime. Choose wisely 'cause it's a once-off.
I really do think that before any of you get much older you should take
a VERY careful look at what I have been writing here. Have a look also
at the common meanings for the word physics [samples included below]. If
you don't then I think you are going to spend the rest of your lives
chasing shadows, and end up a bunch of old men sitting on the cyberspace
equivalent of a park bench, STILL chewing over the same old problem! Of
course, if that is what you want then that's fine. But don't say you
weren't warned! :-)
the fact is, being conscious is inherently paradoxical, and there is no
escape from the paradox, just like there is no escape from the universe
- until you die that is. Your impressions, perceptions, feelings,
intuitions, etc. of being here now [where you are of course] is what it
is like to be the updating of the model of self in the world which you
brain is constantly constructing all the time you are awake. When you
sleep there are times when enough of the model gets evoked that you have
a dream that you can remember. The paradox is that for most of the time
we assume that this awareness - consciousness, call it what you like -
IS the world, i.e. what it is like to be 'me' here now, whereas in fact
it is only what it is like to be the model of 'me' here now. This does
not mean that you don't exist; you do exist, and you must pay taxes in
partial payment for the privilege, until you die that is. [I work for
the Australian Taxation Office so I know about these things :-] There is
however a lot more stuff going on in your brain than is actually
explicitly involved in your consciousness of the moment, as far as I can
see there are usually a couple or triple of very sophisticated tasks
going on in parallel but swapping in and out of focussed attention as
needs and priorities of the moment require. There are often also several
other tasks simmering away like pots on the back burners of your stove.
I believe it is the hippocampus which maintains the tasks in process
through re-entrant signalling to the relevant cortical and other areas
which embody the salient features of the constructs involved. Binding is
achieved through re-entrant signalling of resonant wave forms such that
each construct EXISTS as a dynamic logical entity able to maintain its
own structure sufficiently to prevent certain other things happening and
to invoke through association [or perhaps through reaction to patterns
of inhibition, whatever] other constructs as necessary. Note the key
word 'exists'. The energy is supplied through the work done as the
neurons re-establish the resting potential of their cell membranes. And
here I should point out that most of the posts on this list do not seem
to talk much about structure, and yet it is the spatia-temporal
structures of interacting cell assemblies which embody the patterns of
information which make muscles move. Think about it! This is what you
should be really concentrating on, because you and I are NOTHING if our
muscles can't be made to move in exactly the right way and the right time.
I know I have written 'I believe' up there a few times, but if you wish
I can go hunting for you and find a bunch of references that back up
what I am saying. I do not have access to pay-as-you-go academic
journals, so I have been gleaning ideas and items of interest about this
for the last couple of decades. I put it to you that if you seriously
think I am wrong, then you have a moral duty to show me on the basis of
clear and unambiguous empirical evidence where it is that I am wrong
about this. Because otherwise it is just a matter of opinion and
speculation, in which case mine is as good as anybody else's that I have
seen on consciousness related lists and what I am proposing is not in
contradiction to any good evidence that I have heard about. I think
William of Occam would be more than happy with what I am putting forward.
I hope no one is offended by this. Is they are, sorry! But time returns
for no one and you do not have for ever, just all the time there is -
for you. That is what entropy is about.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
mpeaty.domain.name.hidden
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
See down below for:
10 results for: /physics/
Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> Le 05-janv.-07, à 05:55, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit :
>
>>> Bruno: If consciousness supervenes on all physical processes a case
>>> can be made that matter could be relevant for consciousness. (I see
>>> Peter Jones makes a similar remark).
<<snip>>
> You mean a quantum superposition? (then with comp such a superposition
> really describes an infinity of immaterial computational histories in
> which each page contains a finite amount of ink. Well it is rather
> similar with the quantum mechanical superposition).
>
> The only sense in which (both with quantum field theory AND with the
> comp-physics) I can accept an infinite information on a black page is
> related to renormalization problem, spurious infinite energies ....
>
> But then why to assume a physical world with all those infinities when
> comp forces us to deal with already enough infinities?
> You loss me I'm afraid. Are you trying to save both comp AND the
> physical supervenience? We have not yet derive the whole of physics
> from comp, but we can already expect the "mind-matter" mapping to be
> something quite complex. For me it is obvious that to a mind state
> there will be an infinity of "computational states and histories"
> going through that mind state. The reverse is harder because we are
> unable (assuming comp) to singularize a "comp-physical states".
> Physical states *are* already first person plural (inter-subjective)
> appearances emerging from the gluing and overlapping of infinities of
> computations (and thus immaterial(*)). Unless I am wrong, standard
> computationalism is flawed, like both the monist and dualist doctrine
> of materialism are flawed.
> It would be wrong to say that comp makes materialism refutated, but
> for a similar reason that it is wrong to say that bilogy has proves
> that vitalism is refutated. But biology has made vitalism
> explanation-useless, and computationalism makes materialism explantion
> useless too.
>
> Of course it remains the possibility that comp is incorrect. If comp
> is true, we have to live with that possibility forever.
>
> Bruno
10 results for: /physics/
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phys·ics
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Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[*fiz*-iks] Pronunciation
Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
--noun (used with a singular verb)
the science that deals with matter, energy, motion, and force.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1580--90; see physic
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American Heritage Dictionary
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n.
1. A medicine or drug, especially a cathartic.
2. /Archaic/ The art or profession of medicine.
tr.v. *phys·icked*, *phys·ick·ing*, *phys·ics*
1. To act on as a cathartic.
2. To cure or heal.
3. To treat with or as if with medicine.
[Middle English phisik, from Old French fisique, /medical science,
natural science/, from Latin, /natural science/, from Greek phusike-,
feminine of phusikos, /of nature/, from phusis, /nature/; see bheu?- in
Indo-European roots.]
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n.
1. /(used with a sing. verb)/ The science of matter and energy and of
interactions between the two, grouped in traditional fields such
as acoustics, optics, mechanics, thermodynamics, and
electromagnetism, as well as in modern extensions including atomic
and nuclear physics, cryogenics, solid-state physics, particle
physics, and plasma physics.
2. /(used with a pl. verb)/ Physical properties, interactions,
processes, or laws: /the physics of supersonic flight./
3. /(used with a sing. verb)/ /Archaic/ The study of the natural or
material world and phenomena; natural philosophy.
[From Latin physica, from Greek (ta) phusika, from neuter pl. of
phusikos, /of nature/; see * physics*.]
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*physics*
/noun/
the science of matter and energy and their interactions
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1. The scientific study of matter, energy, space, and time, and of
the relations between them.
2. The behavior of a given physical system, especially as understood
by a physical theory.
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*physics*
The scientific study of matter
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mechanics <
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<
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[Chapter:] /Physical Sciences and Mathematics/
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*phys·ics* (fzks)
/n./
1.
/ Abbr. /*phys.* The science of matter and energy and of
interactions between the two, grouped in traditional fields such
as acoustics, optics, mechanics, thermodynamics, and
electromagnetism, as well as in modern extensions including atomic
and nuclear physics, cryogenics, solid-state physics, particle
physics, and plasma physics.
2. Physical properties, interactions, processes, or laws.
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Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary
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Main Entry: *phys·ics*
Pronunciation: 'fiz-iks
Function: /noun plural but singular or plural in construction/
*:* a science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions
in the fields of mechanics, acoustics, optics, heat, electricity,
magnetism, radiation, atomic structure, and nuclear phenomena
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
On-line Medical Dictionary
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*physics*
physics
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physics [?fiziks] noun singular
the study of natural phenomena such as heat, light, sound, electricity,
magnetism etc but not usually chemistry or biology
Example: Physics is his main subject at university.
Arabic: ??????
Chinese (Simplified): ???
Chinese (Traditional): ???
Czech: fyzika
Danish: fysik
Dutch: natuurkunde
Estonian: füüsika
Finnish: fysiikka
French: physique
German: die Physik
Greek: ??????
Hungarian: fizika
Icelandic: eðlisfræði
Indonesian: fisika
Italian: fisica
Japanese: ???
Latvian: fizika
Lithuanian: fizika
Norwegian: fysikk
Polish: fizyka
Portuguese (Brazil): física
Portuguese (Portugal): física
Romanian: fizica(
Russian: ??????
Slovak: fyzika
Slovenian: fizika
Spanish: física
Swedish: fysik
Turkish: fizik
/See also:/ physicist
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Received on Fri Jan 05 2007 - 13:53:19 PST