Re: subjective reality

From: Hal Ruhl <HalRuhl.domain.name.hidden>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:42:13 -0400

Hi Godfrey:

At 03:10 PM 8/24/2005, you wrote:
snip


>[GK]
>
>Hi Hal,
> My first comment was directed at your previous sentence which read
> something like: "The list of course would have properties that seem
> incompatible as simultaneous properties of a single object, but
> nevertheless definitions create such objects as the "is not" member of
> the definitional pair. So the All is - in total - self incompatible, but
> so what? " I thought, from it, that you meant to say that your Everything
> list contains contradictory attributions like "X is a car" and "X is not
> a car" for the same X. I obviously
>misunderstood you.

The distinction is between existence and reality. While the whole list is
taken as existing the assumption does not hold that every "is" and "is not"
definable object can also have reality. I find it difficult to accept some
combinations of "X is ***..." and "X is not ***..." as being simultaneous
properties of the same object that can have reality or of any of its sub
components but "round square" is perhaps not so unacceptable. For example
in a discrete point universe where for one of its components half the
applicable points are arranged "square" and half "round" this being a state
in some sort of transition sequence of states wherein that component goes
from being round to being square. Now when this particular state has
reality in a sequence of such states does it not contain a "round square"?


> About your first assumption, as you restate above, I would venture to
> say that QM suggests that the existence of such list is very unlikely if
> by 'reality" one understands "physical reality" as defined by EPR, that
> is, as composed by distinct elements
> bearing properties that are independent of the means of observation used
> to assign them to such objects. This is the gist
> of Einstein's famous question "Is the moon there when nobody looks?" and
> all that folklore.

I am making a distinction between existence and reality. Reality is a
transitory state that some definable objects can have. Further I think it
is incorrect to try to exclusively argue from a very small sub set [sample]
of the objects that can have reality - presumably the states of our
universe - back to the system that embeds them.

If it turns out that quantum mechanics is part of the valid description of
our universe [The issue is I believe an open one] then the embedding system
should allow for that. This does not preclude other universes for which
quantum mechanics is not part of the description.

>Now if by "reality" you mean
> platonic reality, I think it is a good question whether such list may
> exist or not. You will have to ask a mathematician...

I am of the opinion that the line items on my list are just numbers. I
believe that most participants in this venue would allow that "Numbers
exist" is a possible starting point and that this is could be considered a
type of Platonism. I just renamed numbers as "properties" so as to include
all their interpretations [sets of other numbers].

>(I am assuming it is contains an countable infinity of entries, no?)

Well there is a difference between listing and counting. I may not be able
to count the reals [at least in this universe] but I think a mathematician
who allows for continuous dimensions in a 3D space will also allow that in
such a space I can list the reals just by drawing a line segment of
arbitrary length on a note pad. Since my list has no dimensionality
restrictions I suspect it can be one for one with the continuum.

Hal Ruhl
Received on Thu Aug 25 2005 - 13:33:35 PDT