Le 27-juil.-05, à 00:12, Aditya Varun Chadha a écrit :
> I think a reconciliation between Bruno and Lee's arguments can be the
> following:
Thanks for trying to reconciliate us :)
>
> Our perception of reality is limited by the structure and composition
> of brains. (we can 'enhance' these to be able to perceive and
> understand 'more', but at ANY point of time the above limitation
> holds). I think this is closer to what Lee wants to say, and I totally
> agree with it. This is what I have tried to elaborate on in my earlier
> (my first here) email.
>
> But the very fact that this limitation is absolutely inescapable
> (observation and understanding is ALWAYS limited to the observer's
> capabilities) gives us the following insight:
>
> That which cannot be modelled (understood) cannot figure in ANY of our
> "models of reality".
Why ? (I have explicit counterexamples, like the notion of knowledge
for machine).
Logic has evolved up to the point we are able to build formal theory
bearing on non formalizable notions (like truth or knowledge). Amazing
and counterintuitive I agree.
> Therefore although our models of reality keep
> changing, at any given time instance there is no way for us to
> perceive anything beyond the model, because as soon as something
> outside our current model is perceived, we have moved to a future
> instance, and can create a model that includes it. Thus it is kind of
> senseless to talk of a reality beyond our perception.
Why? We can bet on some theories and derive consequences bearing
indirectly on some non perceivable structure.
> In other words,
> we can call something "reality" only once we perceive it. In this
> sense "models may be more real than reality" to us. This is an
> argument of the "Shroedinger's Cat" kind.
>
> In fact if I am correct about what both Bruno and Lee want to say,
> then Lee's arguments are a prerequisite to understanding to what Bruno
> is hinting at.
Actually I agree with it. I do think Lee is close to what I want to
say, at the level of our assumptions. But Lee is quite honest and
cannot not be sure that my conclusion must be non sense (which means
that he grasped them at least).
>
> Quantum Physics says that an observer and his observation are
> impossible to untangle.
OK. But I don't use this. Actually I don't use physics at all. Physics
is emergent, not fundamental (once we assume seriously enough "digital
mechanism" (or computationalism).
>
>> From the above fact,
>
> A Realist (Lee) would conclude that "absolute reality" is unknowable.
> (follows from heisenburg's uncertainty also btw:-) ). But for this the
> realist assumes that this "absolute reality" exists.
>
> A Nihilist (Bruno) would conclude that since this tanglement of
> observer and observation is inescapable, it is meaningless to talk
> about any "absolute reality" outside the perceived and understood
> reality (models).
Actually I am a platonist, that is, a mathematical realist. I do also
believe in physical reality. My point is just that if you make some
hypothesis in the cognitive science (mechanism, computationalism) then
physics is 100% derivable from mathematics. The physical laws are
mathematical (even statistical) laws emerging from what any machine can
correctly bet concerning invariant feature of their most probable
computational history.
Nihilism is what happens when you believe in both computationalism and
materialism. This has been illustrated by La Mettrie and mainly Sade
(but also Heidegger and Nietsche in a less direct way, and then perhaps
Hitler or Bin Laden in in very more indirect way).
I am not at all a nihilist. I just show that the computationalist
hypothesis makes the physical world emerge from the truth on numbers. I
take those truth as being independent of me.
I am not a physical realist perhaps, although I do believe in an
independent physical world. I just don't physical reality is primitive.
Like Plato I take what we see and measure as some shadows of something
quite bigger, and non material ...
>
> None of the views is "naive". In fact neither view can ever disprove
> the other, because both belong to different belief (axiomatic)
> systems. apples and oranges, both tasty.
>
>
> P.S.:
> If what I have said above sounds ok and does help put things in
> perspective, then I would like to think that in this WHOLE discussion
> there is NO NEED of invoking terms like "comp hyp", "ASSA", "RSSA",
> "OMs", etc. I, being clearly a lesser being in this new domain of
> intellectual giants at eskimo.com, would highly appreciate if atleast
> the full forms are given so that I can google them and put them in
> context.
OK, but I think those you mention are used in so many posts that I
suggest you to remember them:
ASSA = A SSA = Absolute Self-Sampling Assumption,
RSSA = R SSA = Relative Self-Sampling Assumption,
comp hyp = Computationalist Hypothesis (or digital mechanism, ...)
OM = Observer-moment
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
Received on Wed Jul 27 2005 - 09:46:58 PDT