Re: What do you lose if you simply accept...

From: James N Rose <integrity.domain.name.hidden>
Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 05:39:42 -0700

Russell Standish wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 07:29:33AM -0700, James N Rose wrote:
> > I would like to gather everyone's attention to point to
> > an essential conceptual error that exists in the current
> > debating points of this topic, which in fact has been
> > an egregious error in logic for the past 2500 years,
> > ever since Plato.
> >
> ..... . . . . . . . .
>
> > 'color' - that which we first-order associate -with- apple, exists -solely-
> > in that region -outside and beyond- ... where 'apple' does not exist. By
> > sheer rigid definition of 'existence' - and logical definitions re 'sets' -
> > apple and 'color' are and always must be -mutually exclusive-, with no Venn
> > intersection at all.
> >
> > Conclusions:
> >
> > 1. No entity is 'complete' in and of itself; entities are "completed" only
> > in co-presence of external environmentals.
> >
> > 2. Systems and entities -will have- qualia that exist (emergently) from
> > I-Thou relations which they may not be internally aware of, or be self
> > appreciative of, nor the impacts of these qualia on their 'self'.
> >
> > First and Third frames of reference can never be identical, and
> >
> > 'exhibition of qualia' versus 'access to qualia for feedback purposes'
> > are quite different things.
> >
> > Cybernetic secondary connections 'smooth' and blur this relationship
> > of being.
> >
> >
> > (there is more, but I don't have time at the moment to continue; sorry
> > to do a 'fermat', but I'll write again, if anyone cares to explore this
> > thread after this posting today)
> >
> > Jamie Rose
> > 19 May 2005
>
> Agreed that colour is not a characteristic of an object in itself. How
> does this impact on the debate, however?


Russell,

Realize first that you just easily and aggreably opted to completely negate
Platonic 'real v. ideal' as a flawed logic. Identification of 'essential
qualia' is no longer an a priori valid 'given'. By next logical extension
of this de-validation, which qualia - assigned to an entity by way of
external evaluation of the entity - represent qualia which the entity
functions on immediately and intimately because the entity internally
has an information link to it?

The school prank of putting a secretly taped sign on a friends back
saying 'kick me' .. the conscious performance of the student -excludes-
a qualia which the environmental world identifies -with- the
student-with-sign.

"A description of a system, and a system in and of itself, can never and
will never map perfectly one to one and on to."

QED

Conclusions:
 
   1. Initial condition alternatives result in alternate eventstream outcomes.
   2. Alternate information sets preclude precision cloning,
                                           performances, decision gates.
   3. Conscious is not perfectly transferrable.

Jamie
Received on Fri May 20 2005 - 08:48:04 PDT