Re: Fw: Something for Platonists]

From: CMR <jackogreen.domain.name.hidden>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:16:08 -0700

Gödel's incompleteness theorems have and justly should be judged/interpreted
purely on the merits of the arguments themselves, not the author's
subjective(prejudiced?) interpretation, no?

He was as much a victim(beneficiary?) of his "discoveries" as was anyone...

CMR

<--enter gratuitous quotation that implies my profundity here-->

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joao Leao" <jleao.domain.name.hidden>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: [Fwd: Fw: Something for Platonists]


> Joao Leao wrote:
>
> > James N Rose wrote:
> >
> > > Joao wrote:
> > >
> > > "Speaking as a devout Platonist ..."
> > >
> > > About 7 years ago I realized there was
> > > a severe contradiction resident in modern
> > > concepts of Being.
> > >
> > > Godel's Incompleteness Theorems have
> > > established a condition-of-knowledge which seem
> > > to challenge if not negate Platonic thought.
> >
> > That just happens to be totally orthogonal to what
> > Godel himself expressed as his own opinion on the
> > consequence of his theorem... Godel is possibly
> > the most consequent of all XXcent. self professed
> > Platonists.
> >
> > >
> > > I'd like to get your ideas on the following:
> > >
> > > Consider the Platonic Ideal of 'apple'. I can
> > > almost guarantee that your mind immediately came
> > > up with an image of 'apple' including stem, colorful
> > > skin, other qualities, etc.
> > >
> > > As Godel designated -system internally consistent-,
> > > we might at first presume the two depictions to be
> > > isomorphic.
> >
> > Why? Is there any reason why my "apple" need to
> > fit a consistent system of "appleness"? I don't think so...
> >
> > > But I submit that per Godel, 'apple' includes only
> > > those characteristics or qualia evident up to
> > > but not external to the bounds of the system,
> > > whatever they may be.
> > >
> > > That being the case, 'color' of any existential
> > > ideal-apple exists only in the out-space where the
> > > platonic apple per se -does not-.
> > >
> > > Therefore 'color' and 'apple' - in any platonic sense -
> > > must be mutually exclusive. Which seems to press the
> > > 2500 year old standing impression of 'ideal apple'.
> >
> > Not at all. You are confusing images with things and
> > forgetting a good deal of what platonism is about. An
> > apple, this apple, the apple I am thinking of, all partake
> > the form of "appleness" whatever that is. The color of
> > this apple, the color of that bird, this red, the "red" you
> > are thinking of right now", all partake of the form of
> > "redness" in the Patonic world. There is no contradition
> > here. There are no forms here!
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Another discontinuity.
> > >
> > > If you climb Mount Everest and sit down on it,
> > > does the mountain now satisfy the platonic ideal
> > > of "chair"?
> >
> > No, why should it? The form of a chair is not the
> > form of "anything I sit on"! You can sit on a table
> > or on your head for all I care... This is a different in
> > "extension" which is much easier to grasp than one
> > of intention, but it is the same think.
> >
> > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
> > >
> > > James Rose
> >
> > I am afraid you are obviously confused about the basis of
> > platonism and the dispute with kantianism, if you will.
> > I suggest you read Stanley Rosen's "Antiplatonism" in
> > his collection "The Ancients and the Moderns" for a
> > recent and detailed review of the issue you raise, namely
> > conditions-of-knowledge as conditions-of-being, a
> > sibject prone to post-kantian confusions....
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > -Joao Leao
> >
> > --
> >
> > Joao Pedro Leao ::: jleao.domain.name.hidden
> > Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
> > 1815 Massachussetts Av. , Cambridge MA 02140
> > Work Phone: (617)-496-7990 extension 124
> > VoIP Phone: (617)=384-6679
> > Cell-Phone: (617)-817-1800
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > "All generalizations are abusive (specially this one!)"
> > -------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
>
> Joao Pedro Leao ::: jleao.domain.name.hidden
> Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
> 1815 Massachussetts Av. , Cambridge MA 02140
> Work Phone: (617)-496-7990 extension 124
> VoIP Phone: (617)=384-6679
> Cell-Phone: (617)-817-1800
> ----------------------------------------------
> "All generalizations are abusive (specially this one!)"
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
Received on Mon Jun 16 2003 - 13:18:30 PDT