Re: Dreaming On

From: Flammarion <>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 10:26:34 -0700 (PDT)

On 1 Sep, 18:14, Quentin Anciaux <> wrote:
> 2009/9/1 Brent Meeker <>:
> > David Nyman wrote:
> >> 2009/9/1 Flammarion <>:
> >>> I claim that that is a *possiblity* and as such is enough
> >>> to show that CTM does not necessarily follow from the computability of
> >>> physics.
> >> It may be easy to lose sight, in the flurry of debate, that the
> >> argument is against CTM+PM. AFAICS nobody is claiming that the
> >> assumption of CTM is *forced* by the computability of physics,
> >> although the contrary would of course argue against it. Rather, *once
> >> CTM is assumed* the entailment on the basis of UDA-8 is that PM is
> >> false, or at best superfluous. If we can't get past this point, we're
> >> doomed to go round in circles.
> >>> The CTM does indeed have hypotetical implciations about
> >>> virtualisation, but nothing follows from that. There is no
> >>> implication from "I might be virtualised" to "I am virtualised" any
> >>> more than from "I might be BIV.."
> >> On the contrary, the insight that Bruno points out is that the force
> >> of CTM consists precisely in the *assumption* that "I am virtualised";
> >> else it has no force. This is the point. UDA-8 is then designed to
> >> expose the entailment that "my generalised environment is virtualised"
> >> is thereby also forced. Consequently the CTM is forced to be a theory
> >> of mind-body, or else nothing.
> > How did we get from a hypothetical that "I am virtualised" to something
> > being *forced*? This is like saying "I might be virtualised" entails "I
> > must be virtualised".
> > Brent
> I don't see it this way...
> The level "0" has nothing that can be detected/tested if CTM is true
> by a computational observer (us if CTM is true). Level 00 plays no
> role.

That is the repetition of the usual mistake. I can have good
reason to believe I am on level 0 without having evidence. THe
reason is given by Occam's razor -- which is also the reason
I have to believe I am not a BIV etc etc etc.

> So I see no points in positing one in the first place.
> Simulation is
> relative to an UTM not to an innaccessible substrate.

I see no point in positing immaterial UTMs
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Received on Tue Sep 01 2009 - 10:26:34 PDT

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