On 18 Aug, 22:46, David Nyman <david.ny....domain.name.hidden> wrote:
> 2009/8/18 Flammarion <peterdjo....domain.name.hidden>:
>
>
>
> >> >> The "paraphrase" condition means, for example, that instead of adopting a statement like "unicorns have one horn" as a true statement about reality and thus being forced to accept the existence of unicorns, you could instead paraphrase this in terms of what images and concepts are in people's mind when they use the word "unicorn"; and if you're an eliminative materialist who wants to avoid accepting mental images and concepts as a basic element of your ontology, it might seem plausible that you could *in principle* paraphrase all statements about human concepts using statements about physical processes in human brains, although we may lack the understanding to do that now.
>
> >> I presume that one could substitute 'computation' for 'unicorn' in the
> >> above passage? If so, the human concept that it is 'computation' that
> >> gives rise to consciousness could be "paraphrased using statements
> >> about physical processes in human brains". So what may we now suppose
> >> gives such processes this particular power? Presumably not their
> >> 'computational' nature - because now "nous n'avons pas besoin de cette
> >> hypothèse-là" (which I'm sure you will recall was precisely the point
> >> I originally made).
>
> > That's completely back to front. Standard computaitonalism
> > regards computation as a physical process taking place
> > in brains and computer hardware. It doesn't exist
> > at the fundamental level like quarks, and it isn't non-existent
> > like unicorns. It is a higher-level existent, like horses.
>
> I completely agree that **assuming primary matter** computation is "a
> physical process taking place in brains and computer hardware". The
> paraphrase argument - the one you said you agreed with - asserts that
> *any* human concept is *eliminable*
No, reducible, not eliminable. That is an important distinction.
> (my original point) after such
> reduction to primary physical processes. So why should 'computation'
> escape this fate? How would you respond if I said the brain is
> conscious because it is 'alive'? Would 'life' elude the paraphrased
> reduction to physical process?
I don't see your point. Either claim may or may not be true
and may or may not be paraphraseable.
> BTW, let's be clear: I'm not saying that physicalism is false
> (although IMO it is at least incomplete). I'm merely pointing out one
> of its consequences.
Which is what?
> > It's prima facie possible for physicalism to be true
> > and computationalism false. That is to say that
> > the class of consciousness-causing processes might
> > not coincide with any proper subset of the class
> > of computaitonal processes.
>
> Yes, of course, this is precisely my point, for heaven's sake. Here's
> the proposal, in your own words: assuming physicalism "the class of
> consciousness-causing processes might not coincide with any proper
> subset of the class of computational processes". Physicalist theory
> of mind urgently required. QED
I am arguing with Bruno about whether the eliminaiton of matter
makes things easier for the MBP. I think it just give you less to work
with.
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Received on Wed Aug 19 2009 - 02:06:25 PDT