Re: Dreaming On

From: Bruno Marchal <>
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 10:06:31 +0200

On 07 Aug 2009, at 20:35, Brent Meeker wrote:

> Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> Very important post, Peter. We are progressing.
>> On 06 Aug 2009, at 19:09, 1Z wrote:
>>> On 31 July, 18:55, Bruno Marchal <> wrote:
>>>> On 31 Jul 2009, at 18:05, 1Z wrote:
>>>>> If it isn;t RITSIAR, it cannot be generating me. Mathematical
>>>>> proofs only prove mathematical "existence", not onltolgical
>>>>> existence. For a non-Platonist , 23 "exists" mathematically,
>>>>> but is not RITSIAR. The same goes for the UD
>>>> Is an atom RITSIAR? Is a quark RITSIAR?
>>> If current physics is correct.
>> Then it is not "RITSIAR" in the sense of the discussion with David.
>> Real in the sense that "I" am real. is ambiguous.
>> Either the "I" refers to my first person, and then I have ontological
>> certainty.
>> As I said on FOR, I can conceive that I wake up and realize that
>> quark, planet, galaxies and even my body were not real. I cannot
>> conceive that I wake up and realize that my consciousness is not
>> real.
> But as Bertrand Russell, David Hume and many mystics have pointed
> out you can wake up and
> realize there is consciousness but the "I" that possesses it is a
> fiction.

Absolutely so. It corresponds to the "ego-death" that most people can
live after consuming some entheogen. The so-called "breakthrough"
after consuming some amount of concentrated extract of Salvia
Divinorum is often described in term of ego-death or ego annihilation,
but I think that it is more aptly described as a dissociation between
the first person and the other hypostases with a feeling to remember
who "you" really are, and which is not related to memories or bodies.
That is why some describe this instead as an expansion of the "I", or
an expansion of consciousness. It is related to the second form of
comp-immortality I was talking about some month ago.
Even in the case of the ideal self-referentially correct machine,
there is a sort of competition between many (eight ?) "I". In post-
Plotinus neoplatonist term, the soul "falls" when the "I" identifies
itself with the material hypostases. It is the passage from an "I"
defined in term of truth and/or provability only to an "I" which
includes an attachment to self-consistency (Dt, or ~B~t).
Assuming comp, and extending the arithmetical interpretation of the
Plotinus hypostases, this seems to be the "real" logical origin of
Matter and physical sensations. Much work remains to confirm this.


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Received on Sat Aug 08 2009 - 10:06:31 PDT

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