Hi Kim and all,
On 23 Dec 2008, at 11:50, Kim Jones wrote:
>
> Bruno,
>
>
> things are starting to hang together in my new digital brain (bright
> yellow)
Good.
>
>
>
> you wrote the plan:
>
>
> -------------------
>
> A) UDA (Universal Dovetailer Argument)
>
> 1) I explain that if you are a machine, you are already immaterial.
>
> -------------------
>
> Fine. This thought is merely surprising and somewhat (strangely)
> satisfying. It doesn't affect the way I live my life, but it sure as
> hell gets me some funny looks from people when I try to explain it to
> them! Most people think I am identifying the "self" with the "soul" or
> the "spirit" or some other metaphysical conjecture that they have
> heard of from religion or from their grandmother. They simply do not
> buy it when I tell them that all of reality is like this - that the
> assumption of a primitive, primary material reality is probably a
> gross "error of perception" albeit quite an understandable one.
>
> People are so hoodwinked by appearances, by their senses. Somehow I
> still think we are *meant* to be fooled by appearances - although this
> thought may well be self-contradictory.
You are pointing on a difficult point which we will have to address
soon or later.
> It's a good thing I find most
> things quite unconvincing - including appearances and reality
> generally!
Good to be skeptical. But mind the relativist trap.
> I am always asking myself "What is really going on here?
> Why are things THIS way, in particular? Why not some other way? I have
> always been like this. Some people find me quite annoying in this
> regard...
Don't mind this, though. Except during the feast perhaps ...
>
>
>
> ---------------------
>
> 2) Mechanism entails the existence of a subjective or first person
> indeterminacy or uncertainty.
>
> ---------------------
>
> In the sense that I cannot know who or what I am, BEING who or what I
> am. Correct?
Perhaps you are a little too quick here.
> I would necessarily have to step outside my existence to
> do so - manifestly impossible, given the laws of physics (or simply
> given MEC/COMP). I would have to reboot from a different system; be a
> different entity in fact.
This will be possible, in some sense. You are definitely too quick here.
>
>
> Paradox Alert: Without a first person perspective there could be no
> third person perspectives anyway, isn't that correct?
Just by assuming MEC there will be third person realities conceivable
without first person.
> Why then doesn't
> some part of the first person uncertainty (ie "my" uncertainty about
> "me") translate into 3rd person perspectives?
Ah Ah! Good question.
You know, the first person knows always very well who she is, despite
she cannot tell. In the frame of the UDA, the first person
indeterminacy does not concern who you are (you know that even if you
cannot translate that in any third person description), but it
concerns the more practical (even "physical") question of predicting
who you will be in the next instant, like before and after a sequance
of self-polyplication.
> Anything I might say or
> merely perceive about something or someone else is surely contaminated
> by my uncertainties...so, in the quest to "know myself" how can I
> trust the veracity of any knowledge that comes to me from outside? All
> knowledge comes via brains (wet, messy ones) and all of these brains
> are suffering the same uncertainties about their identity as I.
That is why we assume comp, and then use logic and computer science.
We need a theory to provide light.
> Note,
> I am not a solipsist.
Very good. Let us decide to abandon the comp hypothesis if it leads us
toward solipsism. That may still be possible.
>
>
> Also, you cannot experience the experience that I experience and vice
> versa. Which is why I think art and music in particular are important
> revelations of the first person perspective.
Yes.
> Music is an ATTEMPT to
> overcome first person indeterminacy by "universalising" certain
> qualia. Tchaikowsky expects you to BECOME Tchaikowsky when you listen
> to the first movement of his 6th Symphony. You suffer and agonise and
> die with him. It's a VR experience. Madonna just doesn't do this for
> me.
Not a chance for Madonna, but apparently she succeeds with some
others, and that is fine.
I am ok with you here.
>
>
> However,
>
> new research has shown that reading the mind is literally possible. We
> can now assemble an image seen via an optical system transmitted only
> via the electrical impulses read in a brain system (NewScientist last
> ed.)
>
> Perhaps it is not too far from here to the thought that you and I
> might "swap instantiations" for a short time? Maybe it would be fun to
> think, walk, talk and act like Bruno Marchal, if only for 5 minutes.
> In fact, I would pay a princely sum to have that experience. In an age
> when some people will spend gazillions on a "space tourist" (virtual)
> reality experience, I would go for the "Be Bruno for Five Minutes"
> option long before I would want to see the globe from orbit....
Kim, if you really insist you can borrow my mind and body, and all my
hypostases actually, for as long as you want.
Just follow the following tips to prevent complications:
- always: eat bread or rice and drink water (that's my body, really. I
need it to say "hello").
- in the morning: drink as much coffee or tea up until you remember
your 1 times table multiplication. It is enough.
- in the evening: smoke as much Cannabis up until you forget your 1
times table multiplication. It is needed for re-creation.
- I would be pleased if you could continue my conversation with Mary
(you know, God's Mother, the most gentle lady of the multiverse). You
will have to meditate two month each day OR smoke Salvia Divinorum
(more easy). Mary is gentle but she has her mood, so be careful.
- If you want to continue my conversation with the Kanabo Gods, and
deepen the Bahanarotu, take Nicotiana Tabaccum. The secret of Tabaccum
(or tabacum) consists in NOT smoking it. I suggest the excellent
african oral tobacco "Makla Ifrikia". Very useful to make your enemy
disappear. Be careful the Kanabo Gods are not gentle and needs a lot
of diplomacy.
- Be super-cautious with Kava Kava, Ayahuasca, Alcohol and Eggs, or
please keep your own liver.
- For the leisure, try hunting the Snark, but beware everything
beginning by the letter "B", like Baker, Butcher, Belgian, Brussels,
Bruno, Bugs and other Boojums. Never take what they propose literally,
they lie or joke half the times.
If you follow those tips, everything will be fine until the next brane
collision.
Note that not everything is legal in all universes, so you will have
to move, or you will have to vote for the relevant local politicians
and wait.
>
>
> -------------------------
>
> 3) The Universal Machine, the Universal Dovetailer and the reversal
> physics/bio-psycho-theo-whatever-logy.
>
> --------------------------
>
> OK - so Abram has been impatient on this point but I guess I am ready
> too:
Are you not a bit impatient too?
Just to be sure, and for the benefit of the others, I give the
solution of the problem I gave to you and Abram:
The problem:
I multiply you by 2^(16180*10000) in front of a
(16180*10000) pixels screen, with each possible images (black and
white) on it.
And I reiterate every 1/24 of a second that multiplication, and this
during 90 minutes, that is 90*60 seconds.
What do you predict you will feel, as personal, subjective, first
person experience. What do you think is more probable, among:
A. I will feel seeing a white screen
B. I will feel seeing a black screen
C. I will feel seeing a movie
D. I will feel seeing a good movie
E. I will feel seeing "2001 Space Odyssey"
F. I will feel seeing "2001 Space Odyssey" with the subtitle of
Caligula)
G. I will feel seeing a random-noise-movie (what you see on TV when
there
is no emission).
SOLUTION
The solution is G.
A, B, E, and F are, with the above experimental protocol, Harry Potter
or "white rabbits" stories. You can live them, but even in that case
don't expect them to continue. C and D are ambiguous.
All right? It is an important point, so anyone should interrupt if
this is not completely clear. Remember that to extract physics we will
have to quantify that first person indeterminacy.
Remember also Kim, that I have still to do "KIM 2.2". Perhaps you have
grasped that your 4m delay problem was a red herring, but I want this
blatantly clear for everybody. It plays a key role in the sequel. I
will do it for reason of completeness.
>
>
>
> I always think of the Sydney Opera House as Platonia. You cannot
> predict how it looks on the outside if you are teleported into the
> foyer!
>
> Also, the Tardis of Doctor Who has a similar asymmetry between outside
> and inside view.
>
> Are you saying Platonia has no outside? The true inside of all
> outsides - just like the 1st person perspective, in fact.
(Arithmetical) Platonia is the nickname of one of the possible
machine's everything. An everything thing cannot have an outside,
because this would mean it is not everything. OK?
If the physicalists are correct, and if the everything is a physical
universe, it too will not have an outside for that very same reason.
That is also why, with MEC or Chuch Thesis, the Universal Dovetailer
can be defined as an everything: it has no input and no output.
The first person notion is more tricky: it cannot have any sort of
boundaries. It has really no name. Of course we will back on this soon
enough.
>
>
>
>
>
>> It is like deciding to believe only in
>> the third person description view, abstracting away our experiences
>> and subjectivity. Then the "I", free-will, decisions, and eventually
>> "consciousness" are explained ... away.
>
>
> Yes - and then, to make matters worse, we turn the whole morass of
> uncertainty over to the religionists who reify a metaphysical
> abstraction which just confounds the whole thing further.
Reification can be done when we don't forget the interrogation mark,
and keep the modesty attitude. The real and hard confusion, imo,
arrives when we abandon the spiritual or intellectual power to the
temporal or political authorities. I think.
Happy Christmas, Kim and all,
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list.domain.name.hidden
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscribe.domain.name.hidden
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Received on Wed Dec 24 2008 - 10:47:18 PST