On Oct 10, 2:51 am, "1Z" <peterdjo....domain.name.hidden> wrote:
> It's a claim of computationalism. I am just explaining how
> computationalism is compatible with physicalism. You
> are complaining about circularity, not contradiction!
So you're saying that this variety of computationalism merely claims
that whatever 'physical properties' happen to be picked out by the
'right sort of computation' must be the ones that are responsible for
consciousness? But this is just dogma masquerading as explanation.
> But remember
> that I have a narrowish view of what is a computer. And remember
> that consciousness is not held to be any old computation.
Yes, but are you saying that *any old instantiation*, provided it
implements to your satisfaction the 'right sort of computation', must
by that token be conscious, whatever 'physical properties' it employs?
If you are, then AFAICS you're either claiming that *any old physical
properties* that implement the computation are fact doing the work of
creating consciousness, or that *none* are. Either option is
effectively abandoning materialism as the explanation for why the
computation is deemed to cause consciousness. If you aren't in fact
claiming this, then your appeal to 'computation' as picking out the
relevant properties can be valid only in the context of *specific*, not
generalised, instantiations, and thus becomes merely a shorthand for
decribing tightly constrained activities of just *those* physical
systems. In this case, you retain your appeal to materialism as
causally relevant, but mere 'computational equivalence', in the
implementation-independent mathematical sense, ceases to predict which
physical systems will be conscious, and which not.
David
> David Nyman wrote:
> > 1Z wrote:
>
> > > Whatever properties are picked out by a computation
> > > will be relevant to it as a computation.
>
> > Yes, of course. But how are these properties supposed to simultaneously
> > produce a state of consciousness stably linked to the 'computation'
> > when this self-same computation could have been instantiated in
> > arbitrarily many physically distinct ways?Why not? A ordinary numerical computation can be instantiated
> in arbitrarily many physical ways, and still produce the same result.
>
> > The computations would be
> > equivalent, but you appear to be claiming that however they are
> > implemented, arbitrarily many distinct physical properties somehow
> > become equally 'relevant' to generating the same state of
> > consciousness.I still don't see why you think this is a problem. If different
> physical states always produced different mental states, there
> would be no mental commonalities between people,
> since all brains are physcially different. Mutiple realisability is a
> feature,
> not a bug!
>
> > > There is no requirement that
> > > the same connscious state is implemented
> > > by the same physical state, so the multiple
> > > reliasability of computations is not a problem
>
> > So you say, but just *what* physical properties are supposed to be
> > relevant and *how* do they contrive always to manifest equivalently
> > within totally different implementations of a computation?How do they for a non-conscious computation?
> That is no a mystery, it is computer engineering.
>
> > Is this just
> > supposed to be a mystery?The mystery is which computations are conscious.
>
> > My point is that under materialism,
> > 'computation' is just a metaphor and what is directly relevant is the
> > activity of the physical substrate in producing the results that we
> > interpret in this way.Under physicalism, *all* the activity is relevant.
> Under computationalism, a subset is.
>
> > What's critical to computational equivalence is
> > not the internal states of the physical substrate, but the consistency
> > of the externalised results thus produced.That's a broad definition of equivalence.
> Running the same algorithm -- rather than producing the same results --
> is generally more relevant.
>
> > But with consciousness, it's precisely the internal states that are
> > relevant.Yes.
>
> > And here your reasoning appears to become circular - a
> > particular set of physical properties can be construed as
> > 'externalising' a particular set of computational results at a given
> > point in time (fair enough) so, whatever these properties happen to be,
> > they're must also be 'relevant' in generating a specific internal
> > conscious state - and so must any arbitrary alternative set of
> > properties that externalise the same computational results. Only
> > because you say so, AFAICS.It's a claim of computationalism. I am just explaining how
> computationalism is compatible with physicalism. You
> are complaining about circularity, not contradiction!
>
> It's not an argument that computationalism is actually true,
> nor meant to be.
>
> > By making the rationale for supervention of
> > consciousness on physical activity completely arbitrary in this wayIt's not completely arbitrary. I don't subsribe to
> the idea that every physical system implements every computation.
> I don't even think computer-like systems are particularly common.
>
> > (it
> > just *somehow* tracks a 'computation' however instantiated), you've
> > effectively abandoned it as a materialist explanation. Didn't
> > Hofstadter use this sleight of intuition to conjure consciousness from
> > anthills and books - or was he perhaps just joking?Well, there *may* be too much multiple realisability. But remember
> that I have a narrowish view of what is a computer. And remember
> that consciousness is not held to be any old computation.
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Received on Tue Oct 10 2006 - 08:15:48 PDT