Ah. and earlier you said that "The simplest operation I can think of that
Turing machines can't do is generate true random numbers (real computers can
do this, albeit in usually in very kludgy ways)." - so you don't think
people are turing machines. Of ocurse, that's the source of our
disagreement.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Russell Standish [SMTP:R.Standish.domain.name.hidden]
> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 8:56 AM
> To: james.higgo.domain.name.hidden
> Cc: R.Standish.domain.name.hidden; everything-list.domain.name.hidden.com
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Implementation/Relativity
>
> >
> > I've had a look and seen that "The paper describes a method of
> extracting a
> > string of random bits from the behaviour of the operating system
> scheduler"
> > - that's not random, any more than my technique of thinking of a number
> > between 1 and 10 (although I choose 7 more often, it's still 'random' in
>
> I would have thought that a person thinking of a number between one
> and 10 was random, although obviously the distribution is not uniform.
>
> Cheers
>
> > precisely the same sense as castro).
> > James
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Russell Standish [SMTP:R.Standish.domain.name.hidden]
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 1:20 AM
> > > To: james.higgo.domain.name.hidden
> > > Cc: R.Standish.domain.name.hidden; everything-list.domain.name.hidden.com
> > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Implementation/Relativity
> > >
> > > Have a look at
> > > http://www.csu.edu.au/special/auugwww96/proceedings/castro/castro.html
> > > . This paper documents a technique for generating real random numbers
> > > on unix style systems. I haven't used the technique myself, so I'm
> > > only taking the paper's claims at face value. For all my simulations,
> > > I've been happy to use pseudo random numbers.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Russell, I know you're director of the High Performance
> Computing
> > > > Support Unit, but real computers can NOT generate random numbers,
> unless
> > > > they're hooked up to a radioactive source. (In the latter case, they
> can
> > > > generate numbers which appear random to us because we are uinable to
> > > predict
> > > > which branch of the multiverse we will end up in after any given
> > > > measurement).
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Russell Standish [SMTP:R.Standish.domain.name.hidden]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 6:03 AM
> > > > > To: hpm.domain.name.hidden
> > > > > Cc: everything-list.domain.name.hidden; R.Standish.domain.name.hidden.EDU.AU
> > > > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Implementation/Relativity
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Russell Standish <R.Standish.domain.name.hidden>:
> > > > > > > conciousness we experience directly ... generated by some kind
> of
> > > > > > > self-referential process ... is intrinsically a different to
> > > > > > > the Turing type tests we perform to attribute conciousness in
> > > > > > > external objects.
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > nor do I think it a particularly useful way of
> > > > > > > thinking.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But it is enormously useful for deciding whether to deal with
> > > > > > particular robots as conscious!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't see any problem in attributing consciousness to a robot
> that
> > > > > convinces me that it is conscious, in just the same way as I
> attribute
> > > > > consciousness to a dog. Animal consciousness such as a dogs only
> > > > > appear to differ in degree rather than in kind to me. On the other
> > > > > hand a supposed conscious rock would truly differ in kind, as the
> > > > > attribution of consciousness gives us no predictive power on their
> > > > > properties.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also agree with the idea that consciousness is a relative
> property,
> > > > > one that is in the eye of the beholder. In the eye of this
> beholder,
> > > > > "free will" is an essential property of consciousness, and its
> hard
> > > > > for me to see how a Turing machine could have free will. Of
> course, it
> > > > > is not necessary to construct robots from Turing machines, but
> most
> > > > > likely they will be able to simulate a Turing machine, as the
> human
> > > > > brain can do. I really suspect that the human brain is capable of
> more
> > > > > than a Turing machine can do.
> > > > >
> > > > > The simplest operation I can think of that Turing machines can't
> do is
> > > > > generate true random numbers (real computers can do this, albeit
> in
> > > > > usually in very kludgy ways). I'm not entirely sure that the human
> > > > > brain can generate truly random numbers either, but probably it
> > > > > can. This is why I speculate that the random number generator may
> be
> > > > > necessary and sufficient for "free will".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yours isn't. Your quest already has a few centuries of western
> > > > > > philosophy of mind under its belt, and is no closer to finding
> the
> > > > > > objective qualities that constitute consciousness. Like the
> effort
> > > > > > to define the properties of phlogiston or the luminiferous
> ether,
> > > > > > it doesn't work because its subject matter is an abstraction
> that
> > > > > > changes with viewpoint.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And you a proposing that considering rocks as conscious will help
> find
> > > > > these qualities too?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dr. Russell Standish Director
> > > > > High Performance Computing Support Unit,
> > > > > University of NSW Phone 9385 6967
> > > > > Sydney 2052 Fax 9385 6965
> > > > > Australia R.Standish.domain.name.hidden
> > > > > Room 2075, Red Centre
> > > http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> > > > >
> > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > --
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > Dr. Russell Standish Director
> > > High Performance Computing Support Unit,
> > > University of NSW Phone 9385 6967
> > > Sydney 2052 Fax 9385 6965
> > > Australia R.Standish.domain.name.hidden
> > > Room 2075, Red Centre
> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> >
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Dr. Russell Standish Director
> High Performance Computing Support Unit,
> University of NSW Phone 9385 6967
> Sydney 2052 Fax 9385 6965
> Australia R.Standish.domain.name.hidden
> Room 2075, Red Centre http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
Received on Thu Jul 29 1999 - 01:11:57 PDT