Stathis:
1. to Kim's question to Bruno (and your reply):
I call "reasonable" the items matching OUR (human) logic, even if we call it
a machine. There is no norm in the existence for 'reasonable', as Cohen and
Stewart showed in their chef d'oeuvre on Chaos in the imaginary
"Zarathustrans". We, with our 100 years ahead thinking and Bruno with his
200 should be above such narrowminded limitations.
2.to your 'delusion': it is correct<G>.
)"...The single best test is to treat someone with
> antipsychotic medication and see if the delusion goes away.")
is this to implant new delusions and see how the poor fellow reacts?
We had some intelligent dicussions about 'everybody is crazy' (George at
al.) and so "crazy" is 'normal' and the "norm" may be crazy. Are the
psych-professionals exceptions?
3. You wrote:
> An unreasonable machine would look like a brain. The minds of living
> organisms, such as they are, evolved ...<
Because we know so little about the ways a brain works and assume too much
based on our present ignorance to explain everything still unknown. There is
the terror of physicists forcing their primitive model on the world,
especially on domains where SOME features can be measured in established
'phisics-invented' concepts by the so fa "physics-invented" instruments and
read in "physics-invented" units, although the conclusions come from
'non-physics-related' activities (mentality, ideation, feelings,
"delusions", etc.,) all having parallel and physically measurable phenomena
in the neurological "sciences".
we use the 'brain' as a tool and have no idea how it works and for what.
In your quoted fragment I feel an equating of brain and mind, which I find
at least premature. I don't know what a "mind" may be. I "know"(?) it must
be both atemporal and aspatial, while the material of the brain is imagined
(physically) to be space and time related.
John M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stathis Papaioannou" <stathispapaioannou.domain.name.hidden>
To: <everything-list.domain.name.hidden>
Cc: <kimjones.domain.name.hidden>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 8:25 AM
Subject: RE: Smullyan Shmullyan, give me a real example
>
> Kim Jones writes:
>
> Bruno,
>
> what would an "unreasonable machine" be like? You seem to be implying
> they exist, also that they can prove things about their possible
> neighborhoods and or histories. (?)
>
> Kim
>
>
> An unreasonable machine would look like a brain. The minds of living
> organisms, such as they are, evolved to promote survival and
> reproduction, and apparently being "rational" is only a minor advantage
> towards this end. I am sure that even logicians, at least when they are
> off duty, pluck axioms out of the air according to whim or fashion, hold
> contradictory beliefs simultaneously or sequentially, decide that the
> correct course of action is x and then do ~x anyway, and so on.
>
> It is interesting that in psychiatry, it is impossible to give a
> reliable method for recognizing a delusion. The usual definition is that
> a delusion is a fixed, false belief which is not in keeping with the
> patient's cultural background. If you think about it, why should
> cultural background have any bearing on whether a person's reasoning is
> faulty? And even including this criterion, it is often difficult to tell
> without looking at associated factors such as change in personality,
> mood disturbance, etc. The single best test is to treat someone with
> antipsychotic medication and see if the delusion goes away. This means
> that in theory there might be two people with exactly the same belief,
> justified in exactly the same way, but one is demonstrably psychotic
> while the other is not! Crazy thinking is so common that, by itself, it
> is generally not enough reason to diagnose someone as being crazy.
>
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
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Received on Sat May 27 2006 - 11:17:14 PDT