Re: belief, faith, truth

From: K. S. Ryan <>
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 02:00:28 +0000

Mr Meeker:
That Wyanr idea of a bored god sounds a lot like the book Game of God, which
postulates that an infinite god cannot experince finiteness, and so exploded
himself into "amnesiac particles" to experience it and all the trials of
evolution. The result is a universe trying to reclaim a unified
conciousness. Very fun book.

Mr Samish:
If you believe in god and lose, you also lose a lifetime of finding your own
place in the universe. I suspect that most of us are on this list because we
are curious about fundamental questions. Religion is a tool for
understanding your place in the universe. It is pasckaged and delivered to a
church/mosque/temple near you. But if you swallow what you are offered than
you miss out on the eureka of discovery.

As an aethiest, I dont require a god "not" to believe in, but require
confidence in my own powers of thought. An aethiest must find his own way,
and for many this entails researching lots of questions across disciplines.

I've done a lot of traveling and have observed that people are basically the
same around the world. Same basic desire to be friendly, helpful, kind.....
these "morals" are universal behaviours. Infact, they are a survival
strategy. Religion does create morality. It formaly encodes pre existing

Likewise, we all live forever whether or not you believe in heaven. But some
of us call it a law of conservation of energy and a law of conservation of
social energy. We may not agree on a soul and the name of god, but we do on
thermodynamics and continuity of culture. I'm sure we dissapate, but our
actions reverberate.

I'm very content to be an aethiest. I think I've discovered spiritual truths
that would have lied dormant if I had simply believed some ancient doctrine.
That's no fun.


From: John M <>
To: Norman Samish <>,
Subject: Re: belief, faith, truth
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:59:01 -0800 (PST)


just imagine a fraction of the infinite afterlife:
to sing the pius chants for just 30,000 years by
'people' in heaven with Alzheimers, arthritis, in pain
and senility?
Or would you choose an earlier phase of terrestrial
life for the introduction in heaven: let us say: the
fetal age? or school-years with the mentality of a
teenager? Would you love spouse No 1,2,or 3? Would you
forget about the biggest blunder you did and regretted
all your life?
Or would you prefer the eternal brimstone-burning
(what a waste in energy) without a painkiller?

I did not ask about your math, how many are involved
over the millennia? I asked a Muslim lately, what the
huris are and what the female inhabitants of heaven

An agnostic has to define what he does 'not' know,
hasn't he?
Just as an atheist requires a god 'not' to believe in.
We are SOOO smart!

Have a good day

John M

--- Norman Samish <> wrote:

> I'm agnostic, yet it strikes me that even if there
> is no God, those that decide to have faith, and have
> the ability to have faith, in a benign God have
> gained quite a bit. They have faith in an
> afterlife, in ultimate justice, in the triumph of
> good over evil, etc. Without this faith, life for
> many would be intolerable.
> If there is no God, there is no afterlife and they
> get a zero. If there is a God, there is an after
> life and they get infinity. So how can they lose?
> Maybe Pascal's Wager deserves more consideration.
> Norman Samish
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brent Meeker" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 5:25 PM
> Subject: Re: belief, faith, truth
> Even within the context that Pascal intended it is
> fallacious. If you worship the God of Abraham and
> there is no god, you have given up freedom of
> thought, you have given up responsibility for your
> own morals and ethics, you have denied yourself some
> pleasures of the mind as well as pleasures of the
> flesh.
> It's a bad bargain.
> Brent Meeker
> “The Christian religion is fundamentally opposed to
> everything I hold in veneration- courage, clear
> thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of
> the truth.” --- H. L. Mencken
> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> > That's right: if you believe in the Christian God
> and are wrong, the real God (who may be worshipped
> by an obscure group numbering a few dozen people, or
> by aliens, or by nobody at all) may be angry and may
> punish you. An analogous situation arises when
> creationists demand that the Biblical version of
> events be taught alongside evolutionary theory in
> schools: if we are to be fair, the creation myths of
> every religious sect should be taught. - Stathis
> Papaioannou
> >
> >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2006 at 12:36:46AM +1100, Stathis
> Papaioannou wrote:
> >> >
> >> > [Incidently, can you see the logical flaw in
> Pascal's Wager as
> >> described
> >> > above?]
> >> >
> >>
> >> I always wondered why it should be the Christian
> account of God and Heaven that was relevant.
Received on Tue Jan 31 2006 - 21:02:08 PST

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.0 : Fri Feb 16 2018 - 13:20:11 PST