Re: "Naive Realism" and QM

From: <kurtleegod.domain.name.hidden>
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:11:44 -0400

Hi Serafino,

 Thanks for your pointers. You obvious know your
 physics quite well and I think you got my point
 precisely!

 Godfrey Kurtz
 (New Brunswick, NJ)

 -----Original Message-----
 From: scerir <scerir.domain.name.hidden>
 To: everything-list.domain.name.hidden
 Sent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:22:10 +0200
 Subject: Re: "Naive Realism" and QM

 Godfrey:
> There is no energy flux directly associated with
> wave-functions (like with electomagnetic or
> mechanical waves) but is a probability density
> and a probability flux associated with the square
> of linear functionals of the wave-function.

 [Scerir]
 The question, at this point, should be:
 probability of what?

 [GK]
 Exactly!

 [Scerir]
 Because, leaving
 aside those who think (Weinberg, Dyson, etc.)
 that only fields exist and are real,
 there are at least a couple of solutions.
 There are physicists (followers of Bohr [1],
 more or less) who think [2][3][4] that quantum
 physics is about 'correlations without correlata',
 or about 'fotuitousness and clicks'. There are
 physicists (followers of Einstein, and his idea
 of Gespensterfeld, etc.) like Born [5], Fock [6],
 Barut [7], etc., who think that a 'probability' wave,
 even in 3n-dimensional space, is a real thing,
 much more than a mathematical tool, and who also
 think that physics is not just about apparata,
 or clicks.
 s.

 [GK]
 Maybe I would not divide things exactly that way but,
 yes, that is basically the choices you have! Either you
 keep looking for an ultimate ontological category on
 which quantum information is predicated, or you
 try and build some understanding of probability as
 a "material" of sorts (that was not Bohr, but actually
 Schrodinger and Madelung on the latter side.)

 There are however some possible ontological grey areas
 between these two positions that can be explored and
 Heiseinberg tried that at some point. Bohr's position
 (the infamous Copnehagen Interpretations)
 was a bit more complicated than what the sentence you
 quote expresses, I would say, so it is hard to know where
 to place him...

 -Godfrey


 [1[ Niels Bohr:
 'However, since the discovery of the quantum of action,
 we know that the classical ideal cannot be attained in the
 description of atomic phenomena. In particular, any attempt
 at an ordering in space-time leads to a break in the causal
 chain, since such an attempt is bound up with an essential
 exchange of momentum and energy between the individuals and
 the measuring rods and clocks used for observation; and just
 this exchange cannot be taken into account if the measuring
 instruments are to fulfil their purpose. Conversely, any
 conclusion, based in an unambiguous manner upon the strict
 conservation of energy and momentum, with regard to the dynamical
 behaviour of the individual units obviously necessitates
 a complete renunciation of following their course in space
 and time.'

 [2] Carlo Rovelli
 Relational Quantum Mechanics
 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9609002

 [3] David Mermin
 What is quantum mechanics trying to tell us?
 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9801057

 [4] Aage Bohr
 http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-10/p15.html

 [5] Max Born:
 'Quite generally, how could we rely on probability
 predictions if by this notion we do not refer to
 something real and objective?'

 [6] V.A.Fock
 'Disskussija S Nilsom Borom', in 'Voprosy Filosofii',
 1964 (a memorandum, about the interpretation of QM
 and the meaning of wavefunction, he gave to Bohr,
 in Copenhagen, 1957, who read it and changed his mind
 about several points, but not all).

 [7] A.O.Barut
 http://streaming.ictp.trieste.it/preprints/P/87/157.pdf





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Received on Sun Aug 21 2005 - 16:15:24 PDT

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