Stathis:
1. Bin Laden's US presidency indeed occurred already:
in THIS universe, in Danny's post, which - discounted certain physical
parameters - is an occurrence.
It happened twice: in your mind again, when you wrote about it.
The condition he put on the 'applicable'(?) model:
>>...in which the participants were conscious actors on the stage of
reality,...<<
is a restriction to HIS conditions, not to question his 'reality'...
2. Infinite universe: good fantasy. What is beyond the infinite? Ask G.
Cantor. Big numbers don't make infinity.
>You can call this consciousness thing mysterious, but we know it >results
entirely from the electrochemical activity in these 10^10
>little bags of salty water; start scooping out bits of brain, and you >will
eventually end up scooping out the consciousness as well. <
Good for you, if "you know it". The little bags of salty water form tools in
a complex process (beyond 'physical' concepts) of mentality and if you
destroy the tools, the process will suffer.
To call it 'mysterious' means: we don't know how it happens. The complexity
human extends beyond the qualia covered by 'your' physical laws of past
observations within the past (scientrific) set boundaries. A transition from
"included" to "not included" cannot be brushed away by "it is mysterious".
(Others say: "somehow")
Nor can it be exclusively assigned to ONE alternate, the childish ancient
belief system of supernatural agencies, saying: if that is 'not', then
nothing is.
I have no (better) explanation, just feel that such closed-mindedness is
wrong.
John Mikes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stathis Papaioannou" <stathispapaioannou.domain.name.hidden>
To: <dmayes.domain.name.hidden>
Cc: <everything-list.domain.name.hidden>
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: regarding QM and infinite universes
>
> Danny Mayes wrote:
>
> QUOTE-
> I think there are many things that never happen in even an infinite
> universe, for reasons that are hard to put into words, and certainly not
> expressable in terms of math. For instance, I do not believe there will
> ever exist, anywhere in the multiverse, a reality in which Osama Bin Laden
> is elected president of the United States in 2004, and is carried into the
> White House on the shoulders of a boisterous, enthusiatic public. QM does
> not overtake other physical laws, including difficult to define laws of
> psychology. A computer could simulate such an event without granting the
> actors in the simulation consciousness, but for it to actually happen in a
> universe in which the participants were conscious actors on the stage of
> reality, such an event would require countless millions of people to not
> only do something totally illogical, but vehemently against everything
they
> would wish for or desire.
> -ENDQUOTE
>
> I don't see how you could possibly justify the above statements without
> invoking supernatural causes. The MWI of QM implies that Bin Laden will in
> fact become US president in some worlds, albeit of very small measure;
this
> is what the laws of physics actually state in this model, and if the model
> is correct, the only way it could NOT happen this way is if the deity
> intervenes and temporarily suspends the laws of physics. As for
psychology,
> although the complexity of the human brain makes a complete mathematical
> model for practical purposes impossible, the same is true of any other
> complex system where chaotic effects are significant, such as the weather.
> It is simple enough to understand the brain very generally in mathematical
> terms: there are 10^10 neurones, each of which can either be "on" or
"off",
> so there are 2^(10^10) possible brain states, and thus a similar number of
> possible mental states (actually much fewer than this, because most
> configurations will be nonsense, but the principle is clear). It is an
> empirical observation that when large numbers of neurones are connected up
> and organised in this way, the system has this emergent quality which we
> call "consciousness". You can call this consciousness thing mysterious,
but
> we know it results entirely from the electrochemical activity in these
10^10
> little bags of salty water; start scooping out bits of brain, and you will
> eventually end up scooping out the consciousness as well. There's nothing
> magical or contrary to the laws of physics about it.
>
>
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> ½ Price FOXTEL Digital Installation On-Line Limited Offer:
>
http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?mode=click&clientID=225&referr
al=Hotmail_tagline_July04&URL=
http://ad.au.doubleclick.net/clk;9412514;96819
05;p?
http://www.foxtel.com.au/2231.htm
>
Received on Tue Jul 27 2004 - 12:01:08 PDT