# Re: Spam Alert: Re: Mathematical Logic, Podnieks'page ...

From: John M <jamikes.domain.name.hidden>
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:14:37 -0400

CMR: ( I quote your earlier points here about 'science' to explain why I called them reductionistic.)

1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation,
and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
3. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

#1 works with (observed/able) phenomena: models according to our epistemic enrichment at the time of study. Identification, description, especially explanation
is topical, observing the boundaries within which we stay put - disregarding the rest - (whether known or unknown) within our reduced models.
This is what I call 'the reduction of the total'. It is even enhanced in
#2, "restricted to the chosen class" - while
#3 puts the crown on its reductionistic head: applying activities [only?]
to the limited (topical, boundary-enclosed) models.

If your vocabulary sais different from reduction of the total into limited models, we have to smoke the calumet for using different vocabularies in peace.

You wrote:
" A method with clearly identified acceptable methodology. No more. No less."
And I seek understanding. I don't believe to find it in your "scientism"<G>.
I may have used the wrong adverb: not "reductionist science", only "science" as we know it.Conventional. It is a topically reduced segregated-parcelled modeling of nature into topics all considered as substantial units - while really in an interconnected total where separating barriers exist only in our organizing effort.

Complexity is a loaded historical noumenon, almost as unidentifiable as consciousness.
I am not talking about the "reductionistic limited models" that are complex, have a theory and work in a formalism of acknowledging the limited model values as 'complete values' in the equational math treatment. If I have to use the word, I mean the complexity of the total in unabridged interinfluencing reciprocity. The word allows flexible semantics. I prefer to say wholeness. Not even 'hole-ism'.

It is hard to skip the belief-system we were brainwashed into during our early studies.
Maybe you can find more in http://pages.prodigy.net/jamikes/SciRelMay00.html
This was written before I foramlized my thinking about reductionism, but applicable.

And NO End of Science! The good old reductionist edifice is very good and useful,
a NEW WAY of doing scientific activity may be in the works. Give it 2-300 years.
"[Conventional]...science is significantly less lousy than all the alternative approaches ..."
which is not good enough for me. Finally as you could see from all the above:
"I like, respect and even largely share your apparent philosophy, John.
But it ain't science."
I hope so and appreciate the preceding to it.

John M
----- Original Message -----
From: CMR
To: everything-list.domain.name.hidden
Cc: John M
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:06 PM
Subject: Spam Alert: Re: Mathematical Logic, Podnieks'page ...
Received on Wed Jun 30 2004 - 18:31:03 PDT

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