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From: Georges Quenot <Georges.Quenot.domain.name.hidden>

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:30:10 +0100

Wei Dai wrote:

*>
*

*> On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 05:32:05PM +0100, Georges Quenot wrote:
*

*> > Many other way of simulating the universe could be considered like
*

*> > for instance a 4D mesh (if we simplify by considering only general
*

*> > relativity; there is no reason for the approach not being possible in
*

*> > an even more general way) representing a universe taken as a whole
*

*> > in its spatio-temporal aspect. The mesh would be refined at each
*

*> > iteration. The relation between the time in the computer and the time
*

*> > in the universe would not be a synchrony but a refinement of the
*

*> > resolution of the time (and space) in the simulated universe as the
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*> > time in the computer increases.
*

*> >
*

*> > Alternatively (though both views are not necessarily exclusive), one
*

*> > could use a variational formulation instead of a partial derivative
*

*> > formulation in order to describe/build the universe leading again to
*

*> > a construction in which the time in the computer is not related at
*

*> > all to the time in the simulated universe.
*

*>
*

*> Do you have references for these two ideas?
*

No. They actually came to me while I was figuring some other

ways of simulating a universe than the sequential one that seemed

to give rise to many problems to me. The second one is influenced

by the prossibility to consider the whole universe within a

variational formulation as suggested by Hawking in "A brief

history of time" where he also considered the possibility of a

boundaryless universe (that makes much sense to me) that would

make difficult the use of any (initial or other) boundary condition.

Among other problems are the one of defining a global time within

a universe ruled by general relativity and including time

singularities within black holes for instance. Last but not

least is the problem of the emergence of the flow of time itself

from the gradient of order within the universe.

There might be references which I do not know of and I would say

probably for the case of simple physics (possibly fluid dynamics

or heat transfer for instance) phenomena which could be simulated

in a 3+1 (or 2+1 or 1+1) dimensional meshes as wholes.

I think the refining mesh could be practically experimented in a

1D+1D and possibly up to 2D+1D for heat conduction within a solid

object with various boundary conditions. While it could much less

efficient (but is it even so obvious ?) than a sequential approach,

implementing a finite element mesh including the time dimension and

solving the partial derivative heat diffusion equations by standard

linear algebra on the whole spatio-temporal domain seems perfectly

feasable to me (at least for small amounts of time).

*> I'm wondering, suppose the
*

*> universe you're trying to simulate contains a computer that is running a
*

*> factoring algorithm on a large number, in order to cryptanalyze somebody's
*

*> RSA public key. How could you possibly simulate this universe without
*

*> starting from the beginning and working forward in time? Whatever
*

*> simulation method you use, if somebody was watching the simulation run,
*

*> they'd see the input to the factoring algorithm appear before the output,
*

*> right?
*

I would say there is a strong anthropomorphic bias in this view.

I suggest you to read my other posts in which I comment a bit

about this kind of things.

Indeed, the practical implementation of the simulation of the

whole universe including the considered computer would be very

heavy if a variational formulation and/or a 4D iteratively

refining mesh had to be used. But I do not see why it should fail

to simulate the computer calculation. What is very difficult is

to guarantee that all interactions propagate at the appropriate

level of accuracy through all of the 4D mesh and/or through all

of the action paths which can be very large and interconnected.

No doubt that "close (up to an unimaginable level) to singular"

matrices will be encountered. But is this very different if one

is to simulate the universe from the big bang up to this

computer calculation with the appropriate accuracy needed to

ensure that from the big bang initial conditions through stellar

formation and human evolution this computer would be built and

would run this particular calculation ? I am not so sure.

I do not believe in either case that a simulation with this level

of detail can be conducted on any computer that can be built in

our universe (I mean a computer able to simulate a universe

containing a smaller computer doing the calculation you considered

with a level of accuracy sufficient to ensure that the simulation

of the behavior of the smaller computer would be meaningful).

This is only a theoretical speculation.

Georges Quénot.

Received on Tue Jan 13 2004 - 11:31:41 PST

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 17:30:10 +0100

Wei Dai wrote:

No. They actually came to me while I was figuring some other

ways of simulating a universe than the sequential one that seemed

to give rise to many problems to me. The second one is influenced

by the prossibility to consider the whole universe within a

variational formulation as suggested by Hawking in "A brief

history of time" where he also considered the possibility of a

boundaryless universe (that makes much sense to me) that would

make difficult the use of any (initial or other) boundary condition.

Among other problems are the one of defining a global time within

a universe ruled by general relativity and including time

singularities within black holes for instance. Last but not

least is the problem of the emergence of the flow of time itself

from the gradient of order within the universe.

There might be references which I do not know of and I would say

probably for the case of simple physics (possibly fluid dynamics

or heat transfer for instance) phenomena which could be simulated

in a 3+1 (or 2+1 or 1+1) dimensional meshes as wholes.

I think the refining mesh could be practically experimented in a

1D+1D and possibly up to 2D+1D for heat conduction within a solid

object with various boundary conditions. While it could much less

efficient (but is it even so obvious ?) than a sequential approach,

implementing a finite element mesh including the time dimension and

solving the partial derivative heat diffusion equations by standard

linear algebra on the whole spatio-temporal domain seems perfectly

feasable to me (at least for small amounts of time).

I would say there is a strong anthropomorphic bias in this view.

I suggest you to read my other posts in which I comment a bit

about this kind of things.

Indeed, the practical implementation of the simulation of the

whole universe including the considered computer would be very

heavy if a variational formulation and/or a 4D iteratively

refining mesh had to be used. But I do not see why it should fail

to simulate the computer calculation. What is very difficult is

to guarantee that all interactions propagate at the appropriate

level of accuracy through all of the 4D mesh and/or through all

of the action paths which can be very large and interconnected.

No doubt that "close (up to an unimaginable level) to singular"

matrices will be encountered. But is this very different if one

is to simulate the universe from the big bang up to this

computer calculation with the appropriate accuracy needed to

ensure that from the big bang initial conditions through stellar

formation and human evolution this computer would be built and

would run this particular calculation ? I am not so sure.

I do not believe in either case that a simulation with this level

of detail can be conducted on any computer that can be built in

our universe (I mean a computer able to simulate a universe

containing a smaller computer doing the calculation you considered

with a level of accuracy sufficient to ensure that the simulation

of the behavior of the smaller computer would be meaningful).

This is only a theoretical speculation.

Georges Quénot.

Received on Tue Jan 13 2004 - 11:31:41 PST

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