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From: John M <jamikes.domain.name.hidden>

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:38:13 -0500

This post went by my mistake to Alberto only. It was meant to the list as

well.

John Mikes

----- Original Message -----

From: "John M" <jamikes.domain.name.hidden>

To: "Alberto Gómez" <agcorona.domain.name.hidden>

Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:46 AM

Subject: Re: SAS and mathematical existence

*> Alberto,
*

*> Digitality and its application is human invention and humans APPLY it to
*

the

*> world. With a different evolutionary setup of brainfunctions we maight
*

have

*> a different idea of the "mathematical". Would that change the world?
*

*> maybe someone could identify the "mathematical" in the sense as it
*

"exists"

*> by itself. I think in "effects" not finding the "words" properly
*

describing

*> them. If the 'mathematical' does describe them all properly, it is still a
*

*> description of something otherwise not identifiable, not the "something"
*

*> itself.
*

*> I have the idea that the esteemed listmembers consider "the mathematical"
*

as

*> a god that created the world and rules its existence. By itself.
*

*>
*

*> John Mikes
*

*>
*

*> ----- Original Message -----
*

*> From: "Alberto Gómez" <agcorona.domain.name.hidden>
*

*> To: <everything-list.domain.name.hidden>
*

*> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:24 AM
*

*> Subject: SAS and mathematical existence
*

*>
*

*>
*

*> > For me there is no bigger step between to wonder about how conscience
*

*> > arises from a universe made by atoms in a Newtonian universe, particles
*

*> > in a quantum universe, quarks in a quantum relativistic universe and
*

*> > finally, superstring/n-branes in a 11 dimensional universe for one side
*

*> > and, on the other side, to wonder about how SAS in a complex enough
*

*> > mathematical structure can have a sense of conscience.
*

*> >
*

*> > Conscience has evolutionary advantages in biological terms, and probably
*

*> > the conscience will emerge, with time, in any description in which the
*

*> > rules permit a replication-with-variations/selection and where one
*

*> > objects feeds from others. It doesn't matter if the description is made
*

*> > of n-branes in 11 dimensional spaces or in any other
*

*> > mathematical/algorithmical construct.
*

*> >
*

*> > These self aware structures in their particular space-time will describe
*

*> > trajectories in which a superintelligent and supradimensional observer
*

*> > could see, inside the SAS, some components: neurons, or alike, that
*

*> > shows signs of troughs about themselves and the rest of their world in a
*

*> > way that interactions between SAS will depend on the changes of their
*

*> > brains -or something like brains-. This is the most that an external
*

*> > observer can experience about the conscience of other beings. These
*

*> > beings will think, so they will exist -and they will think that they
*

*> > exist, that is crucial - . That must be true either in our "physical"
*

*> > world or the world of a geometrical figure in a n-dimensional spacetime,
*

*> > or in a computer simulation defined by a complex enough algorithm (These
*

*> > three alternative ways of describing universes may be isomorphic, being
*

*> > the first a particular case or not. The computability of our universe
*

*> > doesn't matter for this question).
*

*> >
*

*> > So the mathematical existence, when SAS are possible inside the
*

*> > mathematical formulation, implies existence (the expression "physical
*

*> > existence" may be a redundancy)
*

*> >
*

*> > But, for these mathematical descriptions to exist, it is necessary the
*

*> > existence of being with a higher dimensionality and intelligence that
*

*> > formulate these mathematical descriptions? That is: every mathematical
*

*> > object does exist outside of any conscience? The issue is not to
*

*> > question that "mathematical existence (with SAS) implies physical
*

*> > existence", (according with the above arguments it is equivalent). The
*

*> > question is the mathematical existence itself.
*

*> >
*

*>
*

Received on Mon Nov 10 2003 - 15:51:12 PST

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:38:13 -0500

This post went by my mistake to Alberto only. It was meant to the list as

well.

John Mikes

----- Original Message -----

From: "John M" <jamikes.domain.name.hidden>

To: "Alberto Gómez" <agcorona.domain.name.hidden>

Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:46 AM

Subject: Re: SAS and mathematical existence

the

have

"exists"

describing

as

Received on Mon Nov 10 2003 - 15:51:12 PST

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