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From: <juergen.domain.name.hidden>

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:49:39 +0100

This time I'll repeat only a fraction of the 500 lines in your reply:

*>From marchal.domain.name.hidden:
*

*> Suppose you "survive" only through a simulation of
*

*> the big bang at the level of the quantum superstring, membrane, etc.
*

*> then the "correct level of substitution" is the level of the quantum
*

*> superstring, membrane, etc.
*

*>
*

*> Remember the definition of COMP, it says that *there exists* such a
*

*> level. It does not say that "this" or "that" *is* the correct level.
*

Ok.

*> It is a sort of admission of ignorance. This ignorance is
*

*> fundamental. Indeed it has been shown (independently by a
*

*> lot of people---ref in my papers) that comp entails we cannot
*

*> know the correct levels.
*

*> We can bet on it, though, and we can make reasoning
*

*> relatively to correct bets.
*

*>
*

*> Normally a constructive philosopher should abandon comp right here,
*

*> because it follows from that theorem that we cannot be machine in
*

*> any constructive sense.
*

Which theorem? Send pointer to its proof. Not to its informal

description, but to its proof.

(One reason why I doubt this: isn't the lowest possible level - embodied

by what's computable in the limit - sufficient? Why not run all universes

GTM-computable in the limit? If one of them is ours, then the set-up

is constructive.)

*> You miss the point. Even the one who as PI on his T-shirt is
*

*> wrong if he believes PI helps him to predict the issue of the
*

*> next self-duplication.
*

*> Note that if the program remains as lenghty as the sequence, as it
*

*> happens for most Schmidhubers---in the iterated self-duplication,
*

*> these sequence are called uncomputable by Solovay, Chaitin, etc.
*

Not uncomputable. Any past is finite. So it is at worst random or

"Martin-Loef-random" or incompressible. None of those you cite is

careless when it comes to the difference between countable and uncountable

sets. None claims one can compute a continuum by dovetailing. Dovetailing

will be forever limited to the countable realm.

*> >Is there a probability distribution on this set
*

*> >(if not, you cannot predict anything)? Which one?
*

*>
*

*> You talk really as if probability was the only manner you
*

*> know for quantifying uncertainty.
*

*>
*

*> Beside probability there exist other ways to handle the
*

*> uncertain. The one I know
*

*> the best is Dempster-Shafer theory.
*

*> (I have work some years with expert in that field).
*

*>
*

*> Not only I do not restrict myself to the uniform distribution, but
*

*> I don't share your assumption that the only way for quantifying
*

*> uncertainty is probability. Why not Dempster-Shafer theory of evidence ?
*

The various Dempster-Shafer (DS) approaches are no alternatives

to probability theory. They are extensions designed to facilitate

handling of uncertainty in contexts where lack of belief does not imply

disbelief. But DS is essentially about hulls confining sets of

traditional distributions, and thus compatible with the traditional

framework of Bayesian statistics. (Variants of DS that are not yield

paradoxical results.)

*> In the first part of my thesis:
*

*> I am not pretending that I have solved the mind-body problem, nor
*

*> the problem of the origin of the physical laws, nor the QCU.
*

*> But I have rigorously proved that with comp these problems are
*

*> equivalent.
*

It is this recurring type of claim I find so irritating: "rigorous

proof" without formal framework.

*> A weakness is that I am lead toward hard mathematics.
*

What a strange remark. The weakness of your texts is that they are

so informal.

*> >Which unique formalisation? Please write it down!
*

*> >How can you possibly isolate it by informal reasoning?
*

*>
*

*> I was talking *there* about the modal logic G, G*,
*

*> S4Grz, Z1, Z1*, etc.
*

*> These formal logics are intensional (modal) variation of the
*

*> provability logics of the sound self-referentially correct
*

*> machine. I have provide semantics, and theorem provers.
*

*> See explanation and technical details in my thesis and in my
*

*> papers.
*

Your thesis is in French. Your papers are informal. They always include

sentences such as: "Actually such proof and clarification is one of the

main result in my thesis ... without going into details I will briefly

try to convey the main line of the argument" (p 4 of paper dated sept

24, 2000). Then follow informal examples, references to philosophers,

and unsubstantiated claims such as "the UD generates all real numbers",

when it only generates all their finite prefixes, which is a fundamental

difference.

Then there is your "invariance lemma: the way you quantify 1-indeterminacy

is independent of (3-)time, (3-)place, and (3-)real/virtual nature of the

reconstitution." This does not make sense, because if the (3-) probability

distribution on the possible futures and reconstitutions does depend on

time or place or other things (why not?) then 1-indeterminacy does so,

too. Under most distributions, some futures are less likely than others.

Hence there are nontrivial, distribution-dependent, probabilistic

1-predictions as well as "quantifications of 1-indeterminacy" that depend on

time/space/other things.

*> You are also telling us that informal classical mathematics is vague
*

*> because they admit sets like the set of all functions from one
*

*> infinite set to another. I am not the one isolated here in making
*

*> sense of these sets. You cannot pretend I am the one
*

*> pretending 1+1=3! It is a dishonest rhetorical trick.
*

no comment

*> Those who have patiently follow the steps are in general quite
*

*> shocked by the conclusion (the reversal),
*

*> but then, at least, they act honestly: either searching or
*

*> hoping for a precise flaw, or just abandoning comp.
*

have not met anyone whom you shocked - cannot comment on this

*> It looks like it does not occur to your mind that *perhaps*
*

*> I have a point and that you just don't have seen it yet.
*

I have been hoping you have a nontrivial point - the only reason

why I kept encouraging you to explain yourself.

*> Why not trying being a little more modest, mister "I-am-right".
*

*> Have you a prejudice against
*

*> the whole approach or what ?
*

I am prejudiced against claims of rigorous proof when even the

assumptions are unclear; and against statements that are plain

wrong, such as "the UD generates all real numbers".

*> >Algorithmic TOEs are about computable probability distributions on
*

*> >universe histories computable in the limit. Such histories subsume
*

*> >all computable evolutions of all computable observers, including the
*

*> >conscious ones, if there are any.
*

*>
*

*> You ask me to give a formal definition of delay when I use it
*

*> in the every-day life folk sense, and you are willing to talk
*

*> on consciousness without clarification ????
*

Please read again. If "consciousness" is indeed a well-defined concept,

and if there are any "conscious" computable observers, then they will be

computed. Otherwise they won't. In either case there is no need to define

consciousness - I have not seen a convincing definition anyway. Similarly,

there is no need to define "love", although it might be an important

concept to certain computable observers in certain computable universes.

*>From GLevy.domain.name.hidden Sun Feb 18 01:16:16 2001
*

*>The exchange between Bruno and Juergens is, I believe, instructive and
*

*>constructive as it forces them to refine their positions.
*

Where did I have to refine mine?

JS

Received on Tue Feb 20 2001 - 01:52:11 PST

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:49:39 +0100

This time I'll repeat only a fraction of the 500 lines in your reply:

Ok.

Which theorem? Send pointer to its proof. Not to its informal

description, but to its proof.

(One reason why I doubt this: isn't the lowest possible level - embodied

by what's computable in the limit - sufficient? Why not run all universes

GTM-computable in the limit? If one of them is ours, then the set-up

is constructive.)

Not uncomputable. Any past is finite. So it is at worst random or

"Martin-Loef-random" or incompressible. None of those you cite is

careless when it comes to the difference between countable and uncountable

sets. None claims one can compute a continuum by dovetailing. Dovetailing

will be forever limited to the countable realm.

The various Dempster-Shafer (DS) approaches are no alternatives

to probability theory. They are extensions designed to facilitate

handling of uncertainty in contexts where lack of belief does not imply

disbelief. But DS is essentially about hulls confining sets of

traditional distributions, and thus compatible with the traditional

framework of Bayesian statistics. (Variants of DS that are not yield

paradoxical results.)

It is this recurring type of claim I find so irritating: "rigorous

proof" without formal framework.

What a strange remark. The weakness of your texts is that they are

so informal.

Your thesis is in French. Your papers are informal. They always include

sentences such as: "Actually such proof and clarification is one of the

main result in my thesis ... without going into details I will briefly

try to convey the main line of the argument" (p 4 of paper dated sept

24, 2000). Then follow informal examples, references to philosophers,

and unsubstantiated claims such as "the UD generates all real numbers",

when it only generates all their finite prefixes, which is a fundamental

difference.

Then there is your "invariance lemma: the way you quantify 1-indeterminacy

is independent of (3-)time, (3-)place, and (3-)real/virtual nature of the

reconstitution." This does not make sense, because if the (3-) probability

distribution on the possible futures and reconstitutions does depend on

time or place or other things (why not?) then 1-indeterminacy does so,

too. Under most distributions, some futures are less likely than others.

Hence there are nontrivial, distribution-dependent, probabilistic

1-predictions as well as "quantifications of 1-indeterminacy" that depend on

time/space/other things.

no comment

have not met anyone whom you shocked - cannot comment on this

I have been hoping you have a nontrivial point - the only reason

why I kept encouraging you to explain yourself.

I am prejudiced against claims of rigorous proof when even the

assumptions are unclear; and against statements that are plain

wrong, such as "the UD generates all real numbers".

Please read again. If "consciousness" is indeed a well-defined concept,

and if there are any "conscious" computable observers, then they will be

computed. Otherwise they won't. In either case there is no need to define

consciousness - I have not seen a convincing definition anyway. Similarly,

there is no need to define "love", although it might be an important

concept to certain computable observers in certain computable universes.

Where did I have to refine mine?

JS

Received on Tue Feb 20 2001 - 01:52:11 PST

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