Dear Bruno, thanks for a detailed reply.
If you re-read *your* words in my first quote (or in J.Corgan's quote) your
words *("How could I ever be able to define "conscious" for a state without
any memory?")* sound unfounded, unless you emphasize the *"define"* in it.
My question also referred to its *'existence'* rather than a fitting
definition. Similarly I cannot figure what you meant (below):
*Bruno: "... you recover your real identity, ..."* - *after* your memory got
lost. What is your identity without your memories? What do you *recover?* Or
is the 'lost' only hiding and available? The skull and neurons are figments
of the physical world, the genetic neuronal 'functions' work also only on
memory-induced topical items. (Which I did not adjust with the
memory-process idea I mention below).
I don't agree that e.g. a newborn with just marginal in-tomb collected
'memory' *IS* the same person that it will soon turn into (cf. Prof.
Singer, Princeton) after getting more experience (by some(?) kind of
memory).
Johnathan Corgan separates himself from the LSD-like halucinogenal
consciousness and asks, what math Platonists may apply for such
*altered *computations by
a different kind Ccness. I separated myself (on other lists, now all
discussiong Ccness and related ideas) from results obtained on psych
"patients" because I am curious about the 'normal' (i.e. average and
un-impeded) human mentality rather than the sickness induced
exceptions/distortions.
I consider "a person" as a total complexity (as we say: mind-body+ unit) in
its entire experience (memory-capability) and if a *teleporation* is said to
take only part of such with it, I write it off as a different person from
the (orig). person. (Besides my aversion towards thought-experiments).
I wonder if we dream under REM? I placed dreaming into the last period of
waking up. REM is the deepest closure from the aware Ccness. I think.
(Stathis?) Is there a way to remember REM period ideas?
Bruno: "...I don't interpret...."
I think you do, do you do it consciously or not. Without interpretation you
cannot arrive at your usable terms. Raw data are - in human logical thinking
- meaningless and contentless as far as one wants to use them in
conscious(?) thinking.
You may have refered to the level of interpretation as adjusting into your
prior mindset, or just store as (roughly interpreted) glimps. Discussing
with others? food for your 1st pers. interpretation from the *same* of
others.
(Remember: I don't condone 3rd pers. straight entry into one's mentality).
"...Memory is very important..."
Yes, but what is it? (If it is an "it", at all, not a process) I disagree
with the neurologists that molecular changes in brain-tissue (neurons, glia
and maybe other proteins) "STORE" the experience as memory and can be
recalled(!!) when needed. I dropped my 1st objection: nature has so many
code-possibilities that in the quadrillion+ of conformational groups in all
that stuff EVERYTHING can be codedly stored, but then, when needed, you
require a similarly flexible and mutiple code for the recall to find it. In
other words: you have to recall it in order to recall it. For the finding
'coding' recall you require a similar ordering system to do that and so on,
so the idea cannot be started except from the ready (and already found)
memory you are looking for.
Now the process? If one allows the 'thought' (mentality, mind-stuff, you
name it) to be above space and time (although capable of considering them)
you may *recall *a memory (!?) by "going back in time" and take another
look. That may account for some flexibility in memory-recall, (vs. an
inflexible molecular/chip change). It also can serve repetitive learning by
easing connectivity in the multiple usage. - Just an idea.
Thanks again for your input
John
On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Bruno Marchal <marchal.domain.name.hidden> wrote:
>
> On 17 Mar 2009, at 19:29, John Mikes wrote:
>
> Bruno:
> before youcontinue reading (what you forgot in total amnesia<G> ) a
> question:
>
> You wrote among others:
> *"...Note that with high concentrated extract of Salvia Divinorum, people
> can "suffer" (or "enjoy") a total amnesia, where you forget not just your
> name and memories of life, but you forget even what is a person, what is
> space, what is time. Yet you remain conscious...."*
>
> How do you define *"conscious"* for a state without *ANY *memory working
> in your mindset?
>
>
>
> I cannot define "conscious" for a state with memory. How could I ever be
> able to define "conscious" for a state without any memory?
>
> But I am also not really saying "without any memory", I said "without any
> memory of ...", and then a list with "my usual memories, person, space,
> time. But in that experience you feel like you recover your real identity,
> or older memories, and it happens that that identity has nothing to do with
> memory, except you remember that, or perhaps better you just feel very
> familar with the state. A big déjà-vu. Some describes this as a new quale. I
> can hardly describe the "feeling", like you can hardly describe the feeling
> of seeing blue to a blind.
> This is true in fine and precision for all consciousness experience, and
> that is why we have poets and artists.
>
>
>
>
> How can you *'understand'* anything (to become 'aware' of?) -
>
>
> I don't even really try to understand. I just live it. When I try to
> understand I use a theory and logic, etc. When I live, I eat, or I sleep,
> and in this case I smoke a psycho-active product (like alcohol or tea,
> except salvia seems more safe, even if it seems more impressive than the
> experience with tea).
>
>
>
> You may experience a connectionless and meaningless *wirwar *emerging in
> (literally) senseless randomity - not even recognizing that it is a
> 'view', a 'sound', or 'idea' until you 'deveop' *SOME *connections (right
> or wrong).
>
>
> I certainly develop connexion; like with the "Lady Salvia". The salvia
> experience is like dream, except it is of a different nature, but it has
> repeatable patterns, including connecting and disconnecting many things.
> Then you learn by discussing with others. It provides some new angle on
> consciousness.
>
>
>
>
> Then you have a 'perceived (solipsist) world to be 'aware of'.
>
>
> This is already interpretating too much. I don't interpret. It is raw
> experiences. I discuss with other people of their raw experiences, and we
> learn in the traditional non-solipsist way. Of course, with consciousness,
> each of us is its own only guinea pig).
>
>
> Now in that you can continue reading. But what will you read?...
>
>
> With comp I have a subtheory which predicts that some perturbation of the
> brain (or computer) can lower down your brain capacity of filtering of
> consciousness. I am still not sure. I have made dreams which confirms
> feeling of "higher order" form of consciousness, but typically my brain was
> more active (REM state). I am not reading something. Just taking the
> opportunity that a product, which in my opinion is very safe (certainly much
> safer than alcohol, tobacco), can lead you easily to a, rather fascinating,
> "altered state of consciousness" to learn, perhaps something on
> "consciousness", perhaps something on realities.
>
>
>
>
> Regards (hopefully with retained memory, so I still remember you...)
>
>
>
> Memory is very important. But even just to manage them well, we have to
> forget things. We forget things all the time. The relation of consciousness
> and memory is a fascinating question, and the experience of salvia, has
> already shaken some certainties I still had (without knowing). It has
> certainly renewed my interest in the fuse thought experiment, a bit like the
> movie "the prestige". Forgetting is the path to abstraction; which is useful
> in the comprehension search.
>
> I have also discovered that plant helps also headache, also on other
> people, especially the real "migraine". I will not try to make a list of
> benefits of that plant, it would be like a propaganda. It is a lovely magic
> plant which seems to have something to say :)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
> John M
>
> On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Bruno Marchal <marchal.domain.name.hidden> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 16 Mar 2009, at 13:31, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>>
>> Hi Bruno,
>>
>> 2009/3/15 Bruno Marchal <marchal.domain.name.hidden>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Günther,
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Hi Bruno,
>>> >
>>> > thanks for your interesting answer, I have some questions though.
>>> >
>>> >> course, as I said, this will depend of what you mean by "you". In
>>> >> case
>>> >> you accept the idea of surviving with amnesia, you can even get to a
>>> >> state where you "know" you are immortal, because your immortality
>>> >> is a
>>> >> "past event".
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I would equate total amnesia with death (we've been through this
>>> > before,
>>> > Stathis has written about this, if I remember correctly).
>>>
>>>
>>> I remember Quentin identifying himself with his memory, and very
>>> logically, identifying total amnesia with death.
>>> It is a complex matter. Total amnesia concern only some form of
>>> declarative knowledge, you cannot loss your "procedural memory",
>>> because it is part of ... arithmetic, and common to all elementary
>>> knowers.
>>>
>>>
>> Well I agree that in total amnesia thought experiment... well the amnesia
>> is not total... the subject still knows his former language and other
>> knowledge... except all knowledges/memories about *who* he was is lost. And
>> in this sense IF in one minute I lose these memories about my current ME,
>> then my current ME is dead for all practical purpose. And IF mwi and/or comp
>> is true then there must exists a moment which is a successor of current ME
>> without the current ME memories being lost... so I should end up in this
>> state and not in the state where my identity was erased because like I can't
>> be where I'm dead... I can't be where I'm not. The 'I' which is referred is
>> the one with memories, the one without cannot meaningfully say he is a
>> successor of me now, except if he sees like in real world "total" amnesia
>> case that his body was mine and causally connected to mine. But in comp
>> sense this is not meaningful... If my mind can be copied and transferred in
>> a "metal" body, this metal body is not causally connected to my biological
>> body... but that mind is a continuation of current me.
>>
>> So in this sense, if you say that it is possible that all successor moment
>> to a moment could lead to a "total" amnesia, then QI is false... or
>> tautologically true because it means you are everyone (ie: no one). But for
>> all practical purpose current ME would be dead.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hmmm...
>> I ask you, and others, this question. What is the probability "now", that
>> you will find yourself in Washington and Moscow the 24 december 2009, when
>> you are annihilated in Brussels, now, (17 March 2009) and reconstituted in
>> both Moscow and Washington the 18 March 2009, say)? The problem is that the
>> reconstitution machine did dysfunction in Washington, so that, from the 18
>> March 2009 up to the 20 Augustus 2009 you (the you in Washington) suffered a
>> "total amnesia". And then, "you" recovered slowly and progressively from
>> that through adequate medication up to a total recall, the 23 December (and
>> none of yous did move from W or M).
>>
>> Note that with high concentrated extract of Salvia Divinorum, people can
>> "suffer" (or "enjoy") a total amnesia, where you forget not just your name
>> and memories of life, but you forget even what is a person, what is space,
>> what is time. Yet you remain conscious. Life appears as a dream, that you
>> recall vaguely, and then forget, and then you forget you did that dream. Yet
>> "you" come back. (See the reports, I don't encourage its consumption, but
>> anyone interested by consciousness can be interested by such reports).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll continue to read the rest of the mail.
>>
>>
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
>
> >
>
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Received on Thu Mar 19 2009 - 17:28:40 PDT