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From: Marchal <marchal.domain.name.hidden>

Date: Thu Dec 2 02:56:13 1999

David Deutsch wrote (at the Fabric Of Reality mailing list):

*>Preprint available at http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/math.HO/9911150
*

*>
*

*>*Machines, Logic and Quantum Physics*
*

*>
*

*>Authors: David Deutsch, Artur Ekert, Rossella Lupacchini
*

(hereafter DEL).

*>Abstract: Though the truths of logic and pure mathematics are objective and
*

*>independent of any contingent facts or laws of nature, our knowledge of
*

*>these truths depends entirely on our knowledge of the laws of physics.
*

*>Recent progress in the quantum theory of computation has provided practical
*

*>instances of this, and forces us to abandon the classical view that
*

*>computation, and hence mathematical proof, are purely logical notions
*

*>independent of that of computation as a physical process. Henceforward, a
*

*>proof must be regarded not as an abstract object or process but as a
*

*>physical process, a species of computation, whose scope and reliability
*

*>depend on our knowledge of the physics of the computer concerned.
*

Very nice and very pedagogical paper. I disagree with

the philosophy, though.

(I like also a lot the FOR book, I find the argument for the multiverse

convincing and I share Deutsch's appreciation for Popper, but there too

I am not convinced by the philosophy. In particular I disagree with

Deutsch's view on Church's thesis).

Here I will make short remarks on the abstract and about the beginning

of the paper *Machines, Logic and Quantum Physics* by DEL.

*> Abstract: Though the truths of logic and pure mathematics are
*

*> objective and independent of any contingent facts or laws of
*

*> nature, ...
*

I agree, but when DEL add:

*>our knowledge of
*

*>>these truths depends entirely on our knowledge of the laws of physics.
*

I could have agree with the idea that our knowledge of these truth

depends on the laws of physics, but I don't understand how

our knowledge of these truth could depend on *our knowledge* of the laws

of physics. Indeed most elementary truth in math has evolved independently

of our knowledge of physics. And it seems also that the knowledge

of *modern physics* depends on our knowledge of mathematics. It is a little

like to say that to understand Pythagore's theorem you need to understand

quantum mechanics. It is the contrary IMHO. Although I agree there are

strong evidence that my brain obeys Schroedinger Equation, I don't need

to be able to solve Schr. Eq. for using my brain. I don't even need

to know I have a brain.

Now it happens that I do not even believe that our knowledge of these

logical and mathematical truth depends on the laws of physics.

I am defending the quite opposite thesis, mainly

that the laws of physics depends on the knowledgeability of these logical

and mathematical truth.

I manage to show that by a kind of arithmetical "turing-tropic" principle

in my thesis http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal

I quote the beginning of DEL's paper *Machines, Logic and

Quantum Physics*:

*> Genuine scientific knowledge cannot be certain, ...
*

I agree. Even logic and math cannot give

certain knowledge, as Descartes realises a long time ago.

*> ..., nor can it be justified a priori.
*

Why ?

This is a pessimistic axiom. If this was true, there would be

no hopes explaining the very existence of the ``empirical world".

That principle forces us to take that existence for granted.

I don't see any logical or empirical reason to do that.

It is quite (logically) possible (consistent) that someone

find an a priori axiom (perhaps inspired by physical observation)

and derive from it a new sort of realm from which he is able to

explain the origin of the physical laws. And, as Wheeler makes it

clear in his ``law without law", such realm cannot be physical

(if not we face an infinite regress).

Well. That is what I have done in my thesis. And other people

like Tegmark, Schmidhuber, Jacques Mallah, Hal Finney, James

Higgo, Chris Malloney, Russell Standish, and many others

are yet searching such realms and justifications:

see http://www.escribe.com/science/theory/

I know that David Deutsch critisizes Wheeler's idea (that physics

is not fundamental after all!) in his paper

``On Wheeler's notion of 'Law without Law' in Physics",

Deutsch, D., Foundations of Physics, Vol. 16, N° 6, pp. 565-572, 1986.

But, quasi explicitly, Deutsch imposes the fundamental nature

of physics. Another misleading idea is his maintaining that mathematical

truth are analytical. But since the Godelian failure of logicism,

this is not tenable. Even the simple axioms of elementary arithmetics

need some form of non trivial introspection.

The DEL paper extends in some way Landauer's idea that

information is physical. (Why don't you refer to it?).

In my thesis I show that

1) if we are Turing emulable (it is the

computationalist hypothesis in psychology) then physics

*must* be derivable from the psychology of machines via

computer science and self-reference logic; and

2) I illustrate a beginning of such

a derivation of physics (in the chapter 5).

Only if we are *not* Turing emulable (that is not even quantum

turing emulable!) are DEL's conclusion consistent.

Physics must be informatical or computationalism (which is explicitly

postulate by David Deutsch) should be false.

Bruno

Bruno MARCHAL Phone : +32 (0)2 650 27 11

Universite Libre Fax : +32 (0)2 650 27 15

de Bruxelles

Avenue F.D. Roosevelt, 50 IRIDIA, CP 194/6

B-1050 BRUSSELS Email : marchal.domain.name.hidden

Belgium URL : http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal

Received on Thu Dec 02 1999 - 02:56:13 PST

Date: Thu Dec 2 02:56:13 1999

David Deutsch wrote (at the Fabric Of Reality mailing list):

(hereafter DEL).

Very nice and very pedagogical paper. I disagree with

the philosophy, though.

(I like also a lot the FOR book, I find the argument for the multiverse

convincing and I share Deutsch's appreciation for Popper, but there too

I am not convinced by the philosophy. In particular I disagree with

Deutsch's view on Church's thesis).

Here I will make short remarks on the abstract and about the beginning

of the paper *Machines, Logic and Quantum Physics* by DEL.

I agree, but when DEL add:

I could have agree with the idea that our knowledge of these truth

depends on the laws of physics, but I don't understand how

our knowledge of these truth could depend on *our knowledge* of the laws

of physics. Indeed most elementary truth in math has evolved independently

of our knowledge of physics. And it seems also that the knowledge

of *modern physics* depends on our knowledge of mathematics. It is a little

like to say that to understand Pythagore's theorem you need to understand

quantum mechanics. It is the contrary IMHO. Although I agree there are

strong evidence that my brain obeys Schroedinger Equation, I don't need

to be able to solve Schr. Eq. for using my brain. I don't even need

to know I have a brain.

Now it happens that I do not even believe that our knowledge of these

logical and mathematical truth depends on the laws of physics.

I am defending the quite opposite thesis, mainly

that the laws of physics depends on the knowledgeability of these logical

and mathematical truth.

I manage to show that by a kind of arithmetical "turing-tropic" principle

in my thesis http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal

I quote the beginning of DEL's paper *Machines, Logic and

Quantum Physics*:

I agree. Even logic and math cannot give

certain knowledge, as Descartes realises a long time ago.

Why ?

This is a pessimistic axiom. If this was true, there would be

no hopes explaining the very existence of the ``empirical world".

That principle forces us to take that existence for granted.

I don't see any logical or empirical reason to do that.

It is quite (logically) possible (consistent) that someone

find an a priori axiom (perhaps inspired by physical observation)

and derive from it a new sort of realm from which he is able to

explain the origin of the physical laws. And, as Wheeler makes it

clear in his ``law without law", such realm cannot be physical

(if not we face an infinite regress).

Well. That is what I have done in my thesis. And other people

like Tegmark, Schmidhuber, Jacques Mallah, Hal Finney, James

Higgo, Chris Malloney, Russell Standish, and many others

are yet searching such realms and justifications:

see http://www.escribe.com/science/theory/

I know that David Deutsch critisizes Wheeler's idea (that physics

is not fundamental after all!) in his paper

``On Wheeler's notion of 'Law without Law' in Physics",

Deutsch, D., Foundations of Physics, Vol. 16, N° 6, pp. 565-572, 1986.

But, quasi explicitly, Deutsch imposes the fundamental nature

of physics. Another misleading idea is his maintaining that mathematical

truth are analytical. But since the Godelian failure of logicism,

this is not tenable. Even the simple axioms of elementary arithmetics

need some form of non trivial introspection.

The DEL paper extends in some way Landauer's idea that

information is physical. (Why don't you refer to it?).

In my thesis I show that

1) if we are Turing emulable (it is the

computationalist hypothesis in psychology) then physics

*must* be derivable from the psychology of machines via

computer science and self-reference logic; and

2) I illustrate a beginning of such

a derivation of physics (in the chapter 5).

Only if we are *not* Turing emulable (that is not even quantum

turing emulable!) are DEL's conclusion consistent.

Physics must be informatical or computationalism (which is explicitly

postulate by David Deutsch) should be false.

Bruno

Bruno MARCHAL Phone : +32 (0)2 650 27 11

Universite Libre Fax : +32 (0)2 650 27 15

de Bruxelles

Avenue F.D. Roosevelt, 50 IRIDIA, CP 194/6

B-1050 BRUSSELS Email : marchal.domain.name.hidden

Belgium URL : http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal

Received on Thu Dec 02 1999 - 02:56:13 PST

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