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From: John Mikes <jamikes.domain.name.hidden>

Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:20:28 -0500

Marc, please, allow me to write in plain language - not using those

fancy words of these threads.

Some time ago when the discussion was in commonsensically more

understandable vocabulary, I questioned something similar

to Günther, as pertaining to "numbers" - the alleged generators of

'everything' (physical, quality, ideation, process, you name it).

As Bruno then said: the positive integers do that - if applied in

sufficiently long expressions. (please, Bruno, correct this to a

bottom-low simplification) - I did not follow that and was promised

some more explanatory text in "not so technical" language. The

discussion over the past some weeks is even "more technical" for me.

Is not the distinction relevant what I hold, that there are two kinds

of 'number'-usage: the (pure, theoretical Math and the in sciences -

(quantity related) - "applied math" - that uses the formalism (the

results, even logics) of 'Math' to exercise 'math'? (Cap vs lower m)

Geometry seems to be in between(????) and symmetry can be both, I think.

I am no physicist AND no mathematician, (not even a logician), so I

pretend to keep an objective eye on things in which I am not

prejudiced by knowledge. (<G>).

John M

On Nov 27, 2007 11:40 PM, <marc.geddes.domain.name.hidden> wrote:

*>
*

*>
*

*>
*

*> On Nov 28, 1:18 am, Günther Greindl <guenther.grei....domain.name.hidden>
*

*> wrote:
*

*> > Dear Marc,
*

*> >
*

*> > > Physics deals with symmetries, forces and fields.
*

*> > > Mathematics deals with data types, relations and sets/categories.
*

*> >
*

*> > I'm no physicist, so please correct me but IMHO:
*

*> >
*

*> > Symmetries = relations
*

*> > Forces - could they not be seen as certain invariances, thus also
*

*> > relating to symmetries?
*

*> >
*

*> > Fields - the aggregate of forces on all spacetime "points" - do not see
*

*> > why this should not be mathematical relation?
*

*> >
*

*> > > The mathemtical entities are informational. The physical properties
*

*> > > are geometric. Geometric properties cannot be derived from
*

*> > > informational properties.
*

*> >
*

*> > Why not? Do you have a counterexample?
*

*> >
*

*> > Regards,
*

*> > Günther
*

*> >
*

*>
*

*> Don't get me wrong. I don't doubt that all physical things can be
*

*> *described* by mathematics. But this alone does not establish that
*

*> physical things *are* mathematical. As I understand it, for the
*

*> examples you've given, what happens is that based on emprical
*

*> observation, certain primatives of geometry and symmetry are *attached
*

*> to* (connected with) mathematical relations, numbers etc which
*

*> successfully *describe/predict* these physical properties. But it
*

*> does not follow from this, that the mathematical relations/numbers
*

*> *are* the geometric properties/symmetrics.
*

*>
*

*> In order to show that the physical properties *are* the mathematical
*

*> properties (and not just described by or connected to the physical
*

*> properties), it has to be shown how geometric/physical properties
*

*> emerge from/are logically derived from sets/categories/numbers alone.
*

*>
*

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Received on Thu Nov 29 2007 - 16:20:45 PST

Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:20:28 -0500

Marc, please, allow me to write in plain language - not using those

fancy words of these threads.

Some time ago when the discussion was in commonsensically more

understandable vocabulary, I questioned something similar

to Günther, as pertaining to "numbers" - the alleged generators of

'everything' (physical, quality, ideation, process, you name it).

As Bruno then said: the positive integers do that - if applied in

sufficiently long expressions. (please, Bruno, correct this to a

bottom-low simplification) - I did not follow that and was promised

some more explanatory text in "not so technical" language. The

discussion over the past some weeks is even "more technical" for me.

Is not the distinction relevant what I hold, that there are two kinds

of 'number'-usage: the (pure, theoretical Math and the in sciences -

(quantity related) - "applied math" - that uses the formalism (the

results, even logics) of 'Math' to exercise 'math'? (Cap vs lower m)

Geometry seems to be in between(????) and symmetry can be both, I think.

I am no physicist AND no mathematician, (not even a logician), so I

pretend to keep an objective eye on things in which I am not

prejudiced by knowledge. (<G>).

John M

On Nov 27, 2007 11:40 PM, <marc.geddes.domain.name.hidden> wrote:

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Received on Thu Nov 29 2007 - 16:20:45 PST

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