Re: Replay to Jason that bounced

From: Russell Standish <>
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:57:11 +1000

On Sat, Apr 21, 2007 at 03:43:38AM -0000, Jason wrote:
> On Apr 19, 9:46 pm, Russell Standish <> wrote:
> > > and state of the
> > > art psuedo random number generates have more output than the amount of
> > > information contained in any single branch of this multiuniverse so it
> > > should be possible to algorithmically create strong AI which uses
> > > PRNG.
> >
> > How so? The amount of information generated by a PRNG is less than the
> > number of bytes required to encode it. That is a simple consequence of
> > algorithmic information theory.
> >
> What I mean is that the period (number of outputs before repition) of
> some Pseudo random number generators is so massive that to store it
> would require more particles than exist in the observed universe. In
> the case of the Mersenne twiser (
> ) can be up to 2^132049-1.

Having a high period is not sufficient for time series complexity. The
arithmetic series (1,2,3,4,...) conducted in 128 bit arithmetic has a
period 2^128, which cannot be stored using all the particles in the
universe. Yet it doesn't have a complexity more than a few 10s of

Probably what you are referring to is crypticity of the PRNG, or the
ability for generator to resist reverse engineering from the generated
sequence. I do discuss cryptic PRNGs in my book, and the possibility
that their generated sequence might have unbounded complexity
relative to an observer of bounded resources. Nevertheless this
argument relies on the unproven P!=NP conjecture, and also that
Chang's results on P=NP for probabilistic TMs do not apply for
observers. Since I do argue that human observers are probabilistic
machines, the case is wide open and intriguing.

> I very much liked your idea of genetic algorithms/genetic programming
> being the root of creative processes; I came to a similar conclusion
> after reading about John Koza's results, in particular his creation of
> a computer program which produced patentable inventions.
> Another part of the book where I had the feeling of total agreement,
> and surprise to see mentioned, was the chapter about the continuation
> of an observer's consciousnes in the multiverse through waking up to
> find oneself an uploaded mind of a transhuman (or even a transalien
> for that matter).
> Jason

We've had a certain amount of fun discussing those topics on this list :)

A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)

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Received on Sat Apr 21 2007 - 22:57:16 PDT

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