Re: Believing ...

From: John M <>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:58:03 -0400

a different reflection from Stathis's, but similarly not a counter-argument....
First off: George Carlin is a comedian and his humorous remarks are not subject to be discussed in a serious argumentation. I like him - at least the "old" Carlin.
to your #1:
:your" atheist has got to believe in the existence (maybe only as a valid topic) something to deny it. To speak about it in a yes/no fashion. He had to accept that "it is a topic".
This is why I formulated "an atheist needs a god to deny".
to your #2:
"Not to believe in something" is IMO not implying "to believe in something else". Anything else. Not even 'generally'. Example: a solipsist. Or a 'comp' pantheist. (Caution: this word just appeared without consideration, I do not argue for its reasonable application).
Agnostic IMO is just pointing to the lack of well defined knowledge about ANYTHING, not restricted to god or religion, as it earlier was used. I consider myself a 'Science-Agnostic" because the ideas I take for most acceptable have no firm(?) foundations.
to the reply of Stathis - reading::
1) Do you believe we should also be agnostic about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? If so, should the balance of belief in these entities (i.e. belief for/against) be similar to that in the case of God? I ask in all seriousness as you are a logician and there *is* a huge difference, logically if not practically, between atheism and agnosticism.
2) I don't know that atheists are much more likely to believe in a material universe than other people.
Stathis Papaioannou
I consider his #1 - AS: "asantaclausist" or "atoothfairyist" - not 'agnostic' - like: "atheist". (Unless you believe in 'something like that' to exist).
An agnostic "is not sure" but does not deny the existence FOR SURE.
The difference, as I feel, between "I don't know" and "I no that no" - as I take Bruno's emphasis. (And I try to use only my own common sense logic).
With StP's #2 I agreed above.

John M

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Bruno Marchal
  Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:27 AM
  Subject: Re: Believing ...

  Le 01-mars-07, à 00:35, Brent Meeker a écrit :

> Brent Meeker quoted:
> "Atheism is a belief system the way "Off" is a TV channel."
> --- George Carlin

  Carlin makes the typical confusion between atheism and agnosticism.

  An atheist has indeed a rich belief system:
  1) he believes that God does not exist (unlike an agnostic who does not
  believe that God exists: that makes a huge difference)
  2) he generally believes in a material or Aristotelian Universe
  (despite its contradiction with comp, or with QM, or with some
  physically reproducible facts, and despite any proof or argument beyond
  the Aristotelian Matter reification.)


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Received on Tue Mar 20 2007 - 09:22:32 PDT

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