On Feb 19, 7:50 am, "John M" <jami....domain.name.hidden> wrote:
> Pls see after Jason's remark
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jason
> To: Everything List
> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 3:42 AM
> Subject: Re: Searles' Fundamental Error
>
> On Feb 18, 5:46 pm, "Stathis Papaioannou" <stath....domain.name.hidden> wrote:
> > On 2/18/07, Mark Peaty <mpe....domain.name.hidden> wrote:
>
> > My main problem with Comp is that it needs several unprovable assumptions to
>
> > > be accepted.
> I believe that to say that some special substrate is needed for
> consciousness, be it chemical reactions or anything else, is
> subscribing to an epiphenominal view. For example, there should be no
> difference in behavior between a brain that operates chemically and
> one which has its chemical reactions simulated on a computer; however
> if it is the chemicals themselves that are responsible for
> consciousness, this consciousness can have no effect on the brain
> because the net result will be identical whether the brain is
> simulated or not. To me, epiphenominalism is a logical contradiction,
> because if consciousness has no effect on the mind, we wouldn't wonder
> about the mind-body problem because the mystery of consciousness would
> have no way of communicating itself to the brain. Therefore, I don't
> see how anything external to the functioning of the brain could be
> responsible for consciousness.
>
> Jason
> -------------------------------
> JM:
> I think you are in a limitation and draw conclusions from this limited model to beyond it.
> Whatever we can 'simulate' is from within the up-to-date knowledge base: our cognitive inventory. That is OK - and the way how humanity developed over the eras of the epistemic enrichment since dawn. Topics are added and views change as we learn more.
> We are not (yet?) at the end with omniscience.
>
> So our today's simulation is valid only to the extent of today's level of knowables. Nobody can include the yet unknown into a simulation. (see the remark of Stathis: "> You can't prove that a machine will be conscious in the same way you are.")
>
> If you insist of considering "the brain", it is OK with me (I go further in my views into a total interconnection) but from even the brain you can include into your simulation only what was learnt about it to date.
> The computer cannot go beyond it either.
> The brain does.
> So our model-simulation is just that: a limited model.
> Are we ready for surprizes?
>
> John M
John,
Today I would agree, we probably don't know enough about the brain and
physcis to make an accurate simulation, nor do we have anywhere near
the computational power necessary for such a simulation. My point
however is outside of that, it is:
If you have two minds (one physical and one simulated) if their states
evolve identically and indistinguishably then the simulation must be
taking into account all necessary aspects related to the mind's
functoning. If some unknown aspect of physics were responsible for
consciousness in the physical mind but not the simulated one, it would
be detected, as the simulation would diverge from the physical mind
(assuming consciousness effects the brain, i.e. a non epiphenominal
view)
To put in another way, if consciousness effects the mind (which I
think is necessary for us to be having this discussion), how could one
have a perfect simulation if the simulation is not also concious? If
one brain is conscious and there is a perfect simulation of it, the
simulation must be conscious. Otherwise the effects of consciousness
would cause a divergence in the simulation.
Jason
--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list.domain.name.hidden
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list-unsubscribe.domain.name.hidden
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Received on Mon Feb 19 2007 - 13:49:21 PST