Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> Brent Meeker writes:
>
> > Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> > > Brent Meeker writes:
> > >
> > > > > > This raises the question again of "what is the minimum
> duration of a
> > > > > conscious state"? You mention 5sec as being a long time for a
> > > > > coincidental match (would there still be two consciousnesses
> for that
> > > > > 5sec - I think not), but what about 300msec, or 100msec.
> There's not
> > > > > much consciousness in 100msec; so little that it may be occuring
> > > > > hundreds of times over in different brains.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brent Meeker
> > > > >
> > > > > I think the minimum duration of a conscious experience is of
> the order
> > > > > of 100 msec, so if you are shown a red flash it will take at least
> > > this
> > > > > long before you perceive a red flash. This implies a minimum
> duration
> > > > > for an observer moment, although the interval can be divided up
> > > > > arbitrarily (for example, in teleportation thought experiments)
> > > leaving
> > > > > the experience intact. However, this raises a difficulty.
> Suppose you
> > > > > are shown a red flash and 99 msec later you are teleported to a
> > > distant
> > > > > place. Once you materialise, your neurons will continue their
> > > processing
> > > > > of the red flash for another 1 msec and at that point (i.e. 100
> msec
> > > > > after being shown the flash) you will perceive it. Next,
> suppose that
> > > > > you have no past but are created at the teleportation receiving
> > > station
> > > > > from information *as if* you had been shown a red flash 99 msec
> ago.
> > > > > Your newly-created brain will process information for another 1
> > > msec and
> > > > > then you should perceive the red flash. However, in this case
> you have
> > > > > only been alive for 1 msec, and we can easily change the
> experiment to
> > > > > make this interval as short as we want. Does this mean that an
> > > observer
> > > > > moment can actually be instantaneous?
> > > > >
> > > > > Stathis Papaioannou
> > > >
> > > > This example implicitly assumes a kind of dualism or cartesian
> > > theatre in which the brain does some processing *and then* you (the
> > > really real you) perceives it. This is the idea Dennett criticizes in
> > > "Consciousness Explained". The perception must be the processing and
> > > even if the flash is very short and it's perceived duration is very
> > > short, the brain processes producing that perception can be much
> longer.
> > > >
> > > > Brent Meeker
> > >
> > > Do you doubt that you would perceive the red flash in the case
> where you
> > > have not had 100 msec to process it? At the least you would remember
> > > seeing the flash, implying that the stream of consciousness will
> survive
> > > division into arbitrarily small intervals.
> > >
> > > Stathis Papaioannou
> >
> > Assuming that consciousness supervenes on the physics, this follows
> just from the continuity of the physics. But it doesn't follow that
> there is some experience corresponding to 1msec of brain processing - it
> might be that "seeing the flash" spans some time interval.
>
> That's true, but it still allows that the process underpinning
> consciousness can be arbitrarily divided up. I think others on the list
> have used "observer moment" to mean these arbitrarily small time slices,
> even though you can't actually observe anything during one of them.
>
> Stathis Papaioannou
OK, but that means "observer moments" are not fundamental and the "illusion" of their continuity may be provided by the continuity of their underpinning. But I don't see how a strictly stepwise discrete process as contemplated in the UD can provide that continuity. It was my understanding that it assumed consciousness could be provided by a series of disjoint states.
Brent Meeker
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Received on Sun Jan 28 2007 - 14:34:28 PST