Re: Are First Person prime? - time

From: <>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:09:27 -0400

Bruno, I spent some (!) time on speculating on 'timelessness' - Let me tell
up front: I did not solve it.
Time as 'primitive? you ask (pardon me for the pun: it is primitive as the
idea in our primitive mind) - I ended up with assigning it as a
'space-function' in the concept /movement' (change), just as space is a
time-function in the same. Both in our limited human capabilities of 'sort
of thinking' allowed by the complex of ideation and brain (disallowing the
mind-body dichotomy).
Fromwithin our thinking we cannot judge its reliability or exclusivity. I
allow phenomena outside our experience and comprehension, because we are
limited components in the totality. We "think" in time and Einstein did not
like it. We also "think" in space (what is it?).
We also 'think' (some of us) in numbers.

Have a good day

John M

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruno Marchal" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: Are First Person prime?

Le 09-août-06, à 12:46, 1Z a écrit :

> Timeless universe, universes where everything that can exist
> does exist, are not well founded empirically.

So we should understand that you would criticize any notion, sometimes
brought by physicists, of "block-universe". Time would be a primitive?
What about relativist notion of space-time?

BTW I agree with most of your post (of 09/08/2006) to David. At the
same time I'm astonished that you seem attracted by the idea of making
time a primitive one. I know that some respectable physicists do that
(Prigogine, Bohm in some sense), but many physicist does not (Einstein,
Of course it is more easy to explain that consciousness supervene on
number relations to someone who already accept consciousness could
supervene to a block-universe than to someone who want time (or
consciousness, or first person notion) to be primitive.

Of course I believe that once we assume the comp hyp. there is no more
choice in the matter.

Let me comment your other post in the same reply (to avoid mail box

> The non-existence of HP universes still doesn't
> disprove comp. It shows we con't live in abig universe,
> whether a big phsyical univere or a big Platonia.

Nice. It means you get the seven steps of the 8-steps version of the
UDA. (Universal Dovetailer Argument).
Thanks for resending the 15-steps version of it, it can help. Now I
think that my SANE paper, which contains the 8 steps version of the
UDA, is, despite minor errors, the closest english version of my Lille
thesis, and even better with respect to readability. (Except that it
lacks, like the 15 steps version) the movie-graph argument). Available
here in html or pdf:


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Received on Thu Aug 10 2006 - 12:17:44 PDT

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