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From: Christopher Maloney <dude.domain.name.hidden>

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 23:36:37 -0400

Higgo James wrote:

*>
*

*> Let's be clear about the flying rabbit: we have chosen it as a proxy
*

*> for something very unusual. Otherwise we would have said 'flying bat' which
*

*> is unusual but not very unusual. So we are really asking, 'why is something
*

*> we have chosen to be very unusual, very unusual?'. I fail to see the
*

*> relevance of this piece of circular reasoning.
*

*>
*

*> All it amounts to is asking why there is any stability in our
*

*> observations, and I think you need nothing more than the weak anthropic
*

*> principle to explain stability.
*

I disagree with this, although it is very well put. It is true that

the question "why is something we have chosen to be very unusual, very

unusual?" is circular and useless. But that's not the way I read the

"flying rabbit" problem. Let me try to be precise about the way I

interpret the problem. I'd very much like it if people could comment

on this, since I don't feel that I'm very clear, yet, about the

terminology used on this group, in particular, relative

strong-Self-Sampling Assumption (SSSA)" and "Strong SSSA" (did you

really mean "strong strong self-sampling assumption, Bruno?).

No matter what is meant by the term "existence", one can say that

there is some number, probably infinite, of conscious observer

moments in existence. The weak anthropic principle would suggest

that we find ourselves in a set of those which are "not very special".

This is the SSA. So the natural next step is to examine the

properties of ourselves that we can identify, and try to determine if

that principle holds.

To define "not very special", we need to establish some kind of

measure over the set of possible universes, and thus, in theory, over

the set of all existing observer-moments (I just made the assumption

that possible == exists, which is a tenent of this group). This

brings us to the question which was posed in the very first post to

this group, by Wei Dai: how do we establish this measure?

Now, one of the properties of our conscious existence which is

identifiable is that causal relations seem to hold. That is, we don't

see flying rabbits, because in flying is caused by flapping wings, and

rabbits don't have wings (to quote Monty Python, they don't so much

fly, as plummet). But modern physics tells us that causal relations

only hold in a statistical sense. That is, our science can only give

relative probabilities that things will happen. This is true in the

quantum as well as in the classical domain, it's just that in the

classical domain, the probabilities become ridiculously large (or

small) depending on the phenomenon that is studied.

But why should causal relations *seem* to hold at all? This was the

problem posed by Hume. Why should there be any connectedness between

one moment of time and another, or between our memories and physical

reality? It would seem plausible that among the set of all possible

(hence existing) conscious observer moments, there are a fair number

that just are, without having been caused by anything, and that are

in existence in nonsense universes. Even in this universe, there

is a non-vanishing probability that a rabbit will materialize out of

the thin air, and fly (for however brief a moment) through the room.

Why is it be that the probability of this is what it is, i.e.

extremely low? Granted we picked, on purpose, a scenario which we

know to be unlikely. But the question is, why are the probabilities

what they are?

So the "flying rabbit" problem is just a restatement of the "why are

there physical laws" question, which has also been debated on this

list myriads of times. I do agree with Jacques M. Mallah that this

group desperately needs a FAQ, especially to tie different approaches

to the same questions together.

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 23:36:37 -0400

Higgo James wrote:

I disagree with this, although it is very well put. It is true that

the question "why is something we have chosen to be very unusual, very

unusual?" is circular and useless. But that's not the way I read the

"flying rabbit" problem. Let me try to be precise about the way I

interpret the problem. I'd very much like it if people could comment

on this, since I don't feel that I'm very clear, yet, about the

terminology used on this group, in particular, relative

strong-Self-Sampling Assumption (SSSA)" and "Strong SSSA" (did you

really mean "strong strong self-sampling assumption, Bruno?).

No matter what is meant by the term "existence", one can say that

there is some number, probably infinite, of conscious observer

moments in existence. The weak anthropic principle would suggest

that we find ourselves in a set of those which are "not very special".

This is the SSA. So the natural next step is to examine the

properties of ourselves that we can identify, and try to determine if

that principle holds.

To define "not very special", we need to establish some kind of

measure over the set of possible universes, and thus, in theory, over

the set of all existing observer-moments (I just made the assumption

that possible == exists, which is a tenent of this group). This

brings us to the question which was posed in the very first post to

this group, by Wei Dai: how do we establish this measure?

Now, one of the properties of our conscious existence which is

identifiable is that causal relations seem to hold. That is, we don't

see flying rabbits, because in flying is caused by flapping wings, and

rabbits don't have wings (to quote Monty Python, they don't so much

fly, as plummet). But modern physics tells us that causal relations

only hold in a statistical sense. That is, our science can only give

relative probabilities that things will happen. This is true in the

quantum as well as in the classical domain, it's just that in the

classical domain, the probabilities become ridiculously large (or

small) depending on the phenomenon that is studied.

But why should causal relations *seem* to hold at all? This was the

problem posed by Hume. Why should there be any connectedness between

one moment of time and another, or between our memories and physical

reality? It would seem plausible that among the set of all possible

(hence existing) conscious observer moments, there are a fair number

that just are, without having been caused by anything, and that are

in existence in nonsense universes. Even in this universe, there

is a non-vanishing probability that a rabbit will materialize out of

the thin air, and fly (for however brief a moment) through the room.

Why is it be that the probability of this is what it is, i.e.

extremely low? Granted we picked, on purpose, a scenario which we

know to be unlikely. But the question is, why are the probabilities

what they are?

So the "flying rabbit" problem is just a restatement of the "why are

there physical laws" question, which has also been debated on this

list myriads of times. I do agree with Jacques M. Mallah that this

group desperately needs a FAQ, especially to tie different approaches

to the same questions together.

-- Chris Maloney http://www.chrismaloney.com "Knowledge is good" -- Emil FaberReceived on Wed Jul 07 1999 - 21:01:58 PDT

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